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A long rant, consider yourself warned!
I suspect that all of us who play, or have an interest in the Tomb Kings are beginning to feel short changed by our list options/power. The power creep exhibited in almost all the new lists has left us with little chance in a pitched battle(against competent opposition) vs said lists. I have almost reached the end of my tether, after losing continuously to Daemons, Dark Elves and VC which seem to comprise the entirety of my gaming group.. and on to the new threat Lizardmen or should i say Stegadons -groan-.
Now don't get me wrong i dont mind losing a balanced competetive game, you learn more through your mistakes than victories but i am coming to the conclusion that its not purely my mistakes that are losing me games but more likely an opponent who has access to a more powerful arsenal.
I have tried to rationalise and identify the reasons why our effectiveness is on the slide, and i have come to the conclusion that it is primarily an issue with our magic. It used to be our greatest asset and now we do not have access to enough power dice to fulfil our strategic objectives, or rather that competetive builds are becoming more magically potent or inversely more defensive to compensate.
When the book was designed it was unique and it remains so. It requires nay demands combined charges and synergy of units (as the units are almost universally weak and terribly slow). Our magic is the glue that holds the army together and it rapidly comes unstuck against the following...
1. Dark/High Elf(Teclis) magic builds
2. Daemon armies(Tzeentch[Kairos specifically], core Horrors[1PD, 1DD])
3. Lizardmen, specifically lvl 3 skink priests with Engines of the Gods [3PD, 3DD each)
4. VC are almost universally strong in the magic phase
5. Any magic builds with multiple dispel scrolls
At 2000 points the maximum PD that we can generate before bounds is 11, these armies listed above can easily generate more than half that number in dispel dice. Also when you consider that this optimum setup is achieved when running a LHP which has a big impact in the structure and offensive strength of the army the situation is not really looking much brighter. A list led by a TK with maximum power dice has 8, a Tzeentchian army can generate more dispel dice than that!
I was listening to an american podcast online (Waaghcast, worth a listen to!) and they suggested a rumour that the TK may be getting a new book at the end of the year as certain non-GW stockists have ceased stocking our elite models, traditionally a prelude to an army release anywhere up to a year after removal. Here's hoping; and its a shame for me to write, we had a fabulous book once and lets hope they give us a new one soon as unique and challenging to use.
Thanks for reading
How do you expect to defeat me when I am forever and you are just a man...
Dude, I totally understand where you are coming from as I have the same problem. I have been playing since around 1989 and am no noob to the game. But my nice long runs of wins are now becomming losses with each 7th ed book that hits the shelves.
Only last night I played a 3,500 pt game against Dark Elves. At the end I was wiped out (not a single model remained); I scored only 750aprox pts and they scored in the 4,200 mark. A massacre to say the least.
This is nothing unusaul and I have come to accept that until a new book arrives, this is how things are going to be for a while. Basically, these new books are far too OP for us to handle without going overboad and 'blagging it up'. Then of course they just take a 'tournament build' and wipe the floor.
But I dissagree that it is magic that lets us down. That is one phase that is still mine...mwoahhaha....I pwn then.
We don't use power dice (that's for noobs) we auto cast and roll a couple of dice cos we feel like it. In my 3,500pt army I get off a possible 10 spells (inc bounds)...enough to buckle the enemy phase. Sure my 6 dispell aint great...but I can make sure that a couple of uber spells don't get through.
I see the prob as this.
1. Engine of the fraggin gods...grrrrr. Ohhh I hate this things. GW released the Casket and made it unusable to any army with magic resistance...then gave the Stegadons...sorry, Lizardmen, something to wreck units with (armies if lucky). We have no defence against it...oh, and it has a huge steggy as bonus.
2. Repeater bolt throwers...does it say in the list, may take up to 4 in 2K....or every player must take a minimum of 4. Sure...I take scorps...any player who have been playing for a week knows how to counter them. So the 24 S4 shots are going to make the Tomb guard look like a hedgehog.
3. High Elves...ASF? WTF? Hell no, that is just sick. This means their spearmen dish out their 16 attacks (inc champion) before you get a look in....heck, they (for some odd reason) even strike in two ranks on a charge? Swordmasters just meatgrind even your best elites.
Yay...chariot impact hits bypass this...but they just charge the chariots with cavalry or dragons...because they can. No way out.
4. Vampire Counts...yeah...moving on.
6. These new armies (Dark Elves mainly) seem to have a nice juicy points reduction. So those horrid little witch elves have the same pwnage, for less points!!! Our resident dark elf player has units of 12 (two ranks of 6)....yay.....19 poisoned attacks (or something like that)...groan...and they could make it 25 with a buff from the cauldron.
3,500pts means something like 5 units can turn up...arrghhhhh!!!
Ahhh.....thats better...wigout over
need a beer.
You both make excellent points. But I think that our woes stem from a combination of your points but with neither being more impactful than the other.
The magical proliferation thus far of 7E is a huge deal imho. As Lothar pointed out, nearly every 7E army so far has the ability to generate lists to pretty much relegate our magic phase into an afterthought should they choose to do so. Hell, my second army is WoC and I could make a list to stifle my TKs magic phase (and I refuse to even put a single Tzeentch model on the table).
I think our main problem is twofold:
a) While I love the way the incantation system works as it adds uniqueness and style. It is antiquated and in need of a revamp. New incantations need to be added, both offensively and defensively, as right now I feel we have access to too few and one of them is hardly ever used. Does anyone ever use the magic missile? Related to this, the Hierophant rule needs to go the way of the do-do. As it stands now, it does more harm than good in my view.
b) We pay out the nose, both in terms of points and overall effectiveness (i.e. stats for our units), just for the ability to cause fear. As 7E unveils itself, how much do any of these newer armies really need to worry about fear causers with piss poor stats? My WoC aren't impressed, but in my defense there, I run a Slaaneshi list but not for that reason. I like the fluff for Slaanesh, I just happen to get fear immunity as an added bonus. I mean seriously, it seems pretty easy to make your key units ItP now in 7E, if you end up being auto-broken by skeleton blocks it's pretty much your own fault for being a moron.
Having said that, I think Tomb Kings have a lot of flavor and I'm not abandoning them even in lieu of these massive shortcomings.
Being way underexperienced when it comes to commanding a Tomb Kings force this may not mean much but the jist of the previous posts seems to indicate that TK are either falling off the edge or already completely done for.
Yet DOGCON2009 was won (quite decisively, as i recall) by a TK player, what are your opinions on this?
Last edited by Kadros; March 20th, 2009 at 00:33.
Lucky for me, I wouldn't get within 100 feet of a ultra competitive game of Warhammer. I play for fun as does my gaming group...and I don't face any of the power armies in my circle, with the strongest army I have to deal with are the Lizardmen.
I think what we're doing here is just trying to pinpoint exactly why the Tomb King army as a whole ranks only above the Beasts of Chaos and the Ogre Kingdoms in terms of power level.
I read your concerns, and believe me, they don't go unfounded. It is true that the newer armies are getting tougher in their basic approach to the game. I fully see a trend that Fantasy is heading into the way of 40K in that the majority of stats revolve around the numnber '4' instead of '3', and you are not the norm if you are succeptable to fear/terror/psychology.
Take this character build for example:
Tomb King with Crook and Flail of Radiance, Armor of the Ages, Vambraces of the Sun
This is one of my favorite builds for a Tomb King. He is a 'tank'. T5, with five wounds, and enemies are -1 to attack. Not to mention he goes first with his own five S5 attacks. Put him in a unit of Tomb Guard with the Icon of the Sacred Eye, and he hits most things on 2s, kills most of the enemy front row, and then the Tomb Guard dish out their own brand of hurt.
This was beastly in 6th edition. T5 with five wounds! Holy crap! But now, a demon prince will flip this guy on his head and walk away with a smile on his face.
That said, I still believe Tomb Kings are still a strong competitor. It's simply a fact that our enemies are used to our book (it is seven years old now!). They are keen to our tricks and know how to counter it. But rather than complain about that, we need to learn these new books, and find the best Rock to the enemy's Scissor, while keeping them away from our Paper. Believe me, everything in this game has its weaknesses.
Stegadons are trumped by flanking Ushabti, trust me. Mages hate our Scorpions. Skirmishers in heavy cover fear our archers. Infantry blocks and monsters cringe at our catapult. Impact Hits go before ASF.
The guys at my gaming club groan when I bring my Tomb Kings. And my friends down south fear seeing my blue and gold brick of dice.
Also on our incantations, Hex - the number of dice we can generate before bounds in a 2K game is 13, not 11. (LHP - 6, LP - 2, LP - 2, Prince - 1, CoS - 2). And keep in mind that even though Vampires, Tzeench guys, and other magic high boasting armies can bring a ton more dice than us, they still require a set number to cast. I have played a Vampire player who recieved a total of zero spells in one turn because he refused to throw more than one die at his 4+ to cast, and he kept on getting 1s.
A typical 2K point TK list will have 7-9 Incantation dice (TK, TP, LP, LP - maybe the CoS). Seven incantation dice -on average- will generate 24 pips of magic that the enemy MUST stop.
Finally, just know that you are not destined to win every single game that you are going to play. I am actually in the camp of not wanting to see a new Tomb King book because I don't want GW to muck up something that I have become familiar with over the better half of the last decade. We need more than of a tweak than an overall fix.
Ill admit, i have no recent gaming experiences with my TKs, but its not the fault of our book (it is as near to perfect as GW will ever get in my eyes). The issue is the (slow) return to herohammer in 7th ed. As i prediced waay back, it is beginning to ruin the game
Personally im not looking forward to 7th ed TKs... I have many thoughts about what GW will do to ''streamline'' them, but lets leave that for another time lol.
(PS, has anyone seen my BoC 6.5 thread? Ive consdered something similar for TKs, although there are only a few minor changes id like to make).
Ooh, just one more thing. Are the new DE really that overpowered (/powerful)? Ive been playing against them with Beasts, and easily pullling off draws agaist my mates magic assassin gunline. Other mates also ''proxyhammer'' Ogres and O&Gs, if anything, so far its been my beasts that have dominated... I think my TKs could take on a DE list with little issue (looking at their army book) Would be no more difficult than the WEs ive been fighting for years.
DoC, theyre a new army, GW messed up (mainly, imo, the mistake was in splitting up Chaos and allowing marks to be combined freely... wtf...) but we're stuck with it.
Old Vamps were also a really hard matchup for TKs, theyve lost some things but gained others, no massive leap there in difficulty except their 200pts of ''magic items'' limit, which is stupid.
Lizardmen, newest army, give it a little time and tactics will develop. Personally im releived that Krox got -1Str! My chariots are now free to roam! id love to face these guys and drop some skulls (for anyone who isnt aware, my SSC has a deadly accuracy )
The DE army is basically the same as it was in 6ed...only now much cheaper to field.
With a 25 pnt banner even corsairs are frenzied
Witches are 10 pts a model...vulnerable...but they only need a couple in combat to do damage.
With a buff from the cauldron 6 witches can get up to 25 attacks!!! ro-rolling failed hits in the first turn And our fast cavalry can't kite frenzied units
Tomb Kings are lethal...so people just take killing blow...d'oh.
Scorps munch through the artilery and gunlines....so people just spawncamp the scorps. I, to be honest, have stopped taking scorps in my last few games because everyone have twigged how to beat them and the tactic is getting old.
Stegadons do have weak flanks...but not when sadnwiched between two units of saurus warriors.
Yet we are far from buggered.
Dunno bout you guys...but I still own the magic phase. Even the Lizzie player dreads it.
My mega blocks of 40 skellies hold thier own (unless charged by witches...grrrrrrrr).
SSC's are lethal...I always take 2 ((killed a steggy in one hit last week )
Suppose we better grin and bear it, evolve our tactics until our book comes out.
At least this is Fantasy not 40K...in 40K you book come out...overpowers the rest, then is oblolete in a month; over powered by the next mega book...which in a month is owned by the next release.
Fantasy is a very balanced game, even if some 7th ed rules do take the biscuit
Of all the new books, I think the Dark Elves are what I would aspire an updated Tomb King book to be like.
Aside from the reverse ward save thing - there's not a whole lot in the dark elf book that makes me cringe in a sense that I can't deal with it (the Hydra is scary, but I've one shotted it multiple times with either a SSC or my chariot Prince). And Wyches are scary, but fall like flies to anything in their flank (just like any other unit). I feel all their units/items are for the most part appropriately priced (again, save for the reverse ward save thing). And they have a lot of neat special rules that make them unique, without truly putting any one unit on its own over the top.
I completely understand the points made previous, I tried to run a CC army against Lizardmen....not a pleasant experience, it took a long time to pick up all the pieces of my pride. However, I decided to go with my more usual list of death from afar, and it worked quite well. The s one thing TK players need, need, NEED to use to their advantage is always hitting on 5's, and the Casket. Now, I know some people hate the Casket, but I love it. It is so absolutely terrifying to my opponents, they always save a scroll or dice when its turn comes up. This usually lets your archesr get a free round of shooting, and in a Khalida list, this is nasty. I'll tear up a Steg just from massive amounts of arrows and catapult shots. If that fails, send in a bonegiant and watch the sparks happen!
TK's are still a really, really good army. I've played a wide variety of armies and players, and let me tell ya, everyone hates TK. Everyone. In fact, it led me to start Ogres... which is a whole other rant all together . Just try switching up your playstyle, see what works better. Sadly its what you gotta do sometimes, just look at Nids in 40k... ugh. Anyway I'm sure you'll find a niche that works, just keep 'ing on!
0/0/0 Dark Eldar 0/0/0 Skaven0/0/0 Chaos Dwarfs
Starting on January 1st 2010