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Started playing tomb kings, had a bunch of games and lost, friends play VC, Lizards, HE, DE, Empire, Ogres and occasionally O&G and Brets . (Lizard player is starting Chaos)
I usually lose to all except Ogres. I do not make any tactical errors, my dice rolls are average as are my opponents, I went online to a variety of sites to seek aid, and have found that many if not all big tournaments use house specific rules, and have tiers (a 3-tier usually) of armies that puts TK with Ogres and Beasts at the lowest tier and VC and Chaos at the top (sometimes with DE too), and then in tournaments either give them a bonus or other armies a deficit in play.
Recently I've almost stopped playing altogether because i dislike the idea of having lost before i even roll a die.
I told the people I play with how disheartened I am about consistently losing and being at a clear disadvantage on paper, and they simply outright refuse to use any house rules that will benefit me or the Ogre player ( who definitely needs it much more then I do) saying that we don't need it and these are friendly games.
I tried going online and using better lists to compensate, Switching my army to khalida when not going against a high armor fast moving army (which isn't too often). It really hasn't helped at all though i get smashed all the same ( but i do beat ogres alot easier now -_-). From what I can tell my opponents use fairly competitive lists.
What are the most common house rules that are used?
How often are these house rules used outside of tournaments?
How do I convince the people I play with to allow the use of these house rules?
I've never herd of any house rules for tomb kings and i don't think they need any.
The only thing i've herd similar is just to do with comp in tournaments which just works out that if such a such army takes certain items they will get a lower ending score then a more balanced army list. What list have you been running that isn't working for you and at what points level? I could see you having some issues if the LM,VC and DE players take cheesy lists but against balanced lists you should be far from having lost before the game begins.
All our games are 2250
I started with a balanced list
Prince in a chariot
What i thought was a fairly balanced list...it got slaughtered.
I switched to a khalida list against armies that were more vulnerable to shooting
3x 20 bowmen
Prince in Chariot
It did ok, but i still lost about 80% of my games, beating Ogres 100% of the time.
I'm basically just gonna convert my army into VC's at this point.
I've run into several people on several different forums posting things similar to this quote, which I entirely agree with.
"The thing that gets me, is that were the books balanced correctly then it would make friendly gaming much easier.
I think it's almost harder in a friendly game to be completely outclassed by an opponents army before you've even rolled a die, as it automatically puts you on a slightly unfriendly footing"
well IMO it seems your lists are totally wrong without even knowing what you have for magic items and such. try looking at some of the other lists here and try and find new ways of thinking rather then what you do right now, to be honest before i joined this site i thought that my lists were the reasons to my lossses (and somethimes they were) but there are also so many unique things that tk can do that i had never even thought of. i would sugest reading through some posts on why people like certin units and how they use them and then pick them appart to suit your own play style. worked for me any way!!
on a side note my gaming comunity is farily good with comp and such, and we have benn entertaining the thought of using a tir sysetm for tournaments that give "lesser" armies more points just because they are technically weaker thatn most, but for regular games no such points are given, and as for convincing your oppoents to use these rules, well.... try begging. and if that doesent work then fight back by using the most chessey chesse list you can think of. . i was sick of lossing and did that in a way of "well if i cant win then nither will you" and summoned my army back to life for the entire game giving away very few VP.
Tomb King + Destroyer + Collar = 265
Lich Priest + Cloak + Jar = 160
Lich Priest + scroll + (scroll / kanopi) = 160
Tomb Prince + Chariot of Fire + Brooch + LAS = 201
Chariots x 5 + Bearer x 1 + champ = 240
Skeleton archers 11 x 2 = 176
Scorpions x 2 = 170
Tomb Guard x 19 + Fulll Com + BuL = 283
Ushabti x 4 = 260
SSC + SotF = 110
Bone Giant = 220
That is my all around army at the very core, it changes every game depending on who I am fighting, the only things that remain constant is the King, the priest with the cloak of dunes, 1 squad of chariots, 2 squads of archers, 1 scorpion. Everything else is liable to change and often does has i struggle to find lists that work.
I'll Post my Khalida one in just a sec
Khalida = 420
LP + CoD + Jar = 160
LP + Scroll x 2 (sometimes Kanopi) + Casket = 330
Prince + chariot of fire + LAS + Brooch = 201
Chariots x 3 + poison + bearer + Champ + Music +(Variable standard ~25pts) = 201
Skeleton archers 19 x 3 + Poison + Musician x 3 = 585
Scorpion x 2 = 170
SSC + SotF = 110
Carrion x 3 = 72
Total = 2249
This List is Highly Variable,, but the base from which i make changes to depending on the opponent i am facing. The constants are Khalida, the LP with the CoD + Jar, 2 squads of archers, 1 scorpion, and the SSC, like my other list everything else is highly susceptible to change.
If you see any Blatant mistakes or clear rules that I am breaking in my lists, that only serves to show that I can unknowingly cheat and still lose.
Last edited by ArmoredCompanyIG; November 5th, 2009 at 10:30. Reason: added total
Although VC and lizzies can be really tough match ups it's true (and HE also catch a lot of people out as well if I'm honest), I don't think you need to resort to house rules and handicap systems etc either.
What you do need IMHO is a good list and you need to play it properly.
There are a couple of glaring problems with both the lists you've posted bud, and these will be ruthlessly exploited by even a mediocre opponent. Even without having watched you play, it's easy see why you are having problems.
Take the Khalida list for example: You are playing a list with 66 bows in it but you have no carrion (or even light cav) to march block. Given that you are often playing against fast armies it's hardly surprising you're having a hard time.
You also have Ushabti in a 2250 Khalida list. Given the cost of Khalida herself you really can't afford these expensive units as well or your army will come up short every time. Neither list has a full compliment of special units in it either and this it where the real strength of the TK army is invariably found.
It's not enough to copy a list you've found online and expect to turn up and win with it, you need to understand how the army works by recognising its strengths and weaknesses so you can build and use the list properly. If you do decide to switch to VC then I genuinely wish you well (they're certainly easier to win with), but if you want help to learn how to play your TKs more successfully then there are plenty of people on this site who can give you good advice.
Because Sun Tzu would play Tomb Kings...
I realize that you are replying to the initial lists i typed up off the top of my head, very quickly, i understand your points and realize the importance of having the units. If you have the patience to read my new post that would be great.
Thanks alot for your insight and time.
If anyone would like to know specific strategies or specific lists that I use against specific opponents feel free to ask and I will describe, as my memory best serves, how things went the last time.
Yeah, I actually started writing my post before you added the full lists.
The two lists posted are not too bad in fairness, but each does have a couple of things that will really hurt you.
Re the Khalida list:
These are notoriously tricky to play at 2250 because -as already mentioned- Khalida herself is an enormous expense and that tends to make such lists a little on the small side. Simply put, you really cant afford everything you'd like/need in a 2250pts Khalida list. For example, this particular list has only one hammer unit and no truly effective anvil(s) at all. The skellies can be (and often are) used in a pinch, but they will need to be bailed out quickly by your chariots or they will die in droves, and since you only have one chariot unit to cover 3 archer blocks...
Re the all round list:
Again, this list will be a little on the small side because you've spent a whopping 480 points on a BG (never a good idea) and Ushabti (usually not much better TBH because they will get shot up in no time). To put that expense into perspective, you could of had 12 chariots instead, that's either 3 or 4 full hammer units (depending on how you field them of course).
You will have more success with the archers if you field them in a single unit of 20+. They will have much more CR (so they can actually be used for something other than missile fire) and it will make your smiting spells much more effective.
For the armies you are facing you will need a casket (particularly the VC or they will just go to town on you with summoning spam).
A couple of quick points:
You would be better off fielding your chariots in no more than 4 per unit because you will rarely get all 5 into base to base contact for meelee anyway, and a better set up for the prince will pay dividends -particularly in the weapon department.
Hope this helps bud
Because Sun Tzu would play Tomb Kings...
My first point was going to be to have smaller chariot units. Chariots have their strength in impact hits, and as such these thinsg need to ensure that they hit an opposing unit. Even High Elf ASF GW units are going to get owned when hit by 2-3 chariots - and Fear will auto-break them. Same with opponents like Dark Elves and Chaos Warriors (except Slaanesh marked units or Knights which cause fear anyway).
Lack of carrion or light cavalry will really hamper your efforts - given the lack of mobility apart from incantations that you have, you need flying units and fast units to march block not just for your archery to take effect, but primarily to pull enemy units away from teh line, or prevent a hammer unit getting into position to support an enemy anvil..
Second teh lack of activations and mobility in your first list - though I think you DO need either the Bg or the Ushabti to help deal with smaller flanking or elite units, and Terror is a great weapon. More dispel scrolls will also help, as then you can royally screw up 2 magic phases for your opponent, and hopefully by then you may have killed his mages or else otherwise occupied them (more uses for carrion and light cavalry)
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