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Has anyone played the 7th edition skaven since the release of their current book?
I have a 2k game on sunday against an army with a seer, priest and two engineers. If anyone has any thoughts or experience against the revamped skaven, they would be very welcome!
For us TKs it's business as usual against the skaven. This has always been a funny match up for us because they generate a huge amout of static CR that can really screw us over if you aren't prepared to face it and underestimate them in that regard. Their offensive magic has had a slight increase in power but their magic defence is still suspect (that's all I needed to hear. )
They also have a couple of new tricks that are all the rage ATM:
The storm banner shuts down fliers for a turn and hampers enemy shooting but it doesn't affect us aside from carrion and CotD, so you can pretty much laugh at this one. There is some debate about if the banner can be used repeatedly or only once. Although it isn't actually specified as one shot in the english version of the book it is noted in the german language version. One for the errata methinks.
The furnace is nasty against undead but but since it has zero leadership our casket is gonna be funnier than ever when it goes off. You'll need to watch out for this one though.
One that you can expect to see quite a lot of is the abomination. This is a really nice fatty and the skaven players are foaming at the mouth about this one (can't blame 'em for that, it is a good 'un). Standard BFM tactics apply here: 1). Smack it with your SSC, 2). Is big fatty dead yet? No? Then repeat step one until it is.
Grey seers are fast becoming a 'must have' in many circles. Scorpions find them a tasty delicacy that tastes like chicken.
To be honest not much has really changed for skaven IMHO. The new book mostly offers tweaks here and there rather than a broad sea change in the way skaven are fielded and most of the 'new' tactics that are being touted are just variations on the old ones when it comes right down to it (SAD armies that now use primarily template weapons for example).
Along with the normal level of hysteria you always get whenever a new army book hits the shelves we are seeing the expected cries of "Wow! We are top tier now for sure!" etc, etc. But it's mostly only the skaven players who are saying that though... sorry skaven players.
I suspect that when the dust settles a bit the new skaven will quickly revert into being viewed (at best) as a middling tier army once again. At the moment they are enjoying some unpresedented success (for them), but you need to remember that this is due in large part to the fact that it is all new to their opponents as well and it is only a matter of time before people figure out how to counter the (surprisingly few TBH) new tricks GW has blessed them with.
Your HLP/twin SSC list should do fine here bud. Let us know how you get on eh?
Because Sun Tzu would play Tomb Kings...
I still need to check out the new book (but i have it, so its just a matter of free time... *sigh*). Once i do ill report back here
Vallah seems to have summed everything up nicely.
I'm wondering, however, if he can offer any insight into how impactful their leadership changes are playing out. It seems like they now have a myriad of ways to shore up their otherwise suspect leadership values. LD10 clanrats/slaves? Really? It feels like they can have a majority of their army LD10, stubborn, frenzied, ItP and/or unbreakable. This seems somewhat out of character for the most cowardly army in Warhammer.
I haven't played against the new Skaven yet. I play Lizardmen this weekend. Skaven are two weeks away yet (we play on alternating weekends around D&D) and I'd like to have an idea as to what to expect. Last time I played Skaven, LD wasn't a factor but I didn't push the issue (although my Prince did blow up his General).
I do like the idea of the scorpion taking out a grey seer, my worry is that with only 4 attacks, hitting on 3s, 4+ ward save from the bell is likely to be a problem. 3 hits, may poison or may not, may killing blow, may not. Likely is two wounds with a 4+ ward save then defeated on combat res and crumbles.
It's worth the risk considering you're sending an incredibly cheap (for what it can do) single unit to kill something that is far more expensive. Although the poor Scorp'll probably die, he'll be taking out the Skaven Army's Grand Poobah while doing so.
+++XENOS SPOTTED+++ thrilling battles within the Vitorina subsector: http://xenosspotted.blogspot.com/
Yep, I think Chatawax hit the nail pretty much on the head there. At under 90pts its no huge loss if the scorp only deals a couple of wounds and doesn't get the job done for you because you usually have a few options to finish him off here (not the least of wich is to send in another scorp -lol).
Skaven are great at killing themselves even without our assistance (I think they actually have ways to damage their own units in every phase of the game now ), so even if you can only get the lord down to just a wound or two you can generally put him over the top without too much effort.
The screaming bell is a bit of a dodgy one for skaven because it doesn't enjoy the same synergy as some of the other choices. Basically put, by putting the seer on top of the bell they are essentially painting a huge bullseye on him akin to planting our heirophant on the CoS. Any benefit they might have enjoyed from the ward save is offest by the fact that they have made the seer such a nice juicy target. The bell also puts the seer in harms way in terms of meelee because although he can avoid challenges we do not have to offer a challenge in the first place, so you can just direct your attacks against the poor old seer as you would with anyone elses wizards.
In the long term I would expect many of the more successful generals to go down this high LD horde route because I think it will just be a lot more reliable than the more hit and miss (no pun intended) gunline strategies that you often see with skaven. At the minute though they are all a bit obsessed with their new shineys so it's all just theory.
Since many of the LD tricks are character dependant they will rapidly start to fall appart without them. This has overtones of VC to my mind, so a 'suicide prince' run at the general is probably a most viable tactic if you come up against one of these (and if they are running a grey seer then spamming chariot hits on him is the best way to go against the ward save IMHO).
Because Sun Tzu would play Tomb Kings...
SSC is pretty much a must. Not only does it have a chance to panic units, but the flaming attacks prevent regen on the Abomination and if it takes ANY flaming damage it cannot get back up once it's been killed. I typically send tomb scorpions after the weapons teams, warp lightning cannons and jezzails rather than trying to assassinate the grey seer, which seems a bit ridiculous to me. I'd rather send a unit of tomb guard at the grey seer to try and make an asassination attempt, You need to hit it on the front most of the time anyway and they can actualy survive a round of combat.
The chariots still work wonderfully against them. Go for broke, these things will plow through anything they've got. Clanrats, plaguemonks, stormvermin, you name it, like wheat before the scythe. I've yet to see anything they can field stand up to a chariot charge short of a plague furnace or screaming bell, and honestly you should be picking apart their armies and reserving these things for last. Just watch out for the abomination and the doomwheels. On a lucky roll they can charge deceptively far and catch your chariots unaware.
CoS also just annihilates these guys. I had one enemy player let it go one time. All his weapons teams, his gutter runners, war machines, giant rats and warlock engineers on foot, all died instantly. Every slave unit panicked and fled off the board. It was crazy.
Not to mention that with all their casting now the -1 can really sting them, don't forget this.
The skaven were never a bad army, like TK they were a tactical army that performed very well when fielded and used properly, they got a nice buff and in the hands of a skilled player they can wipe the floor with any other army.
Tomb Scorpion Kill Counter: Gotrek Gurnisson, Empire Cannon Crew=3, Blood Knights=2, Saurus Cavalry=5, Saurus Warriors=3, Razordons=3, Skink warriors=7, Jezzails=8, Poison Wind Globadiers=10, Warp Lightning Cannon=1
Well I played the skaven army. Good news: I won! But for the benefit of everyone else in the forum I'd like to share a couple of things I experienced in the game.
Firstly, the new 'dreaded thirteenth' spell is horrible. Casts on a 25+. Choose an infantry unit within 24". Role 4d6. Total role = total number of wounds on the unit, no armour saves. If the number equals or exceeds the total number of wounds in the unit then the unit 'mutate' into clanrats, otherwise its 4d6 casualties. (This thing wiped out my anvil unit in the first turn - I didn't even get to move them. Fortunately a priest was in the unit and the spell says that if any members of the unit survive then they 'cut down' their mutating comrades). This horribleness is all made possible by warpstone tokens and power stones. But basically, a seer can cast using 8 power dice. 4 of his own, 1 for the army and 3 from bonuses which allow him to take casting dice beyond the normal total. Obviously, 8 power dice gives tremendous potential for irresistable force (everyone would of course use a dispel scroll otherwise). Now I know what you're thinking - there's an equal chance of a miscast. But, short of rolling a double 1 on the miscast table, the greatest danger for the caster is 1 wound and loosing a spell and level. On the other hand, they can wipe out a whole infantry unit.
I don't see that there's much that can be done about this though, short of taking enourmous infantry units then summoning skeletons. Obviously, taking out the seer becomes a priority, but sadly, that's unlikely to happen in the first turn: particularly if you go second. The TS isn't going to arrive until the second turn (and there's only a 50% chance that he'll turn up then, and that's without scattering and just happening to be able to charge). I assume that putting characters in units prevents the arrival of clanrats, since the spell targets the infantrymen. It seems unreasonable to expect characters to fall prey too, but their presence means there is someone to 'cut down' mutating comrades.
The new storm banner is a real pain in the arse too. It prevents flyers - meaning your carrion can't march block, harrass warp lightning cannons etc, at least in the first turn (when arguably their movement is most important). Also, war machines only fire on a 4+. In each subsequent turn, its effects continue on a 4+.
On a brighter note, my 2 x SSC with LHP combination was the hero of the battle - check this for a collection of scalps: Screaming Bell, Hell Pit Abomination, Plague furnace, half a unit of Storm Vermin and half a unit of clan rats, in one game! Huzzah!
Sadly, the scorpion misfired on arrival and roled a 1 , but that has to happen some times.
Congrats on the win bud!
Sounds like your opponent enjoyed a goodly amout of luck with the 13th spell, but I guess you can hardly complain about luck after that long list of SSC fatalities eh?
Because Sun Tzu would play Tomb Kings...