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Hello, I'm a recent convert to the Lords of Khemri, but I've been immersing myself into as many discussions on Tomb King forums to learn as quickly as possible.
Anyway, I've only recently played my first couple of games with the Tomb Kings, and to be frank I was shocked at how few models I could really field in a 2,000 army. First game doesn't really count (against a nuff nuff who was using my lizardmen), and second game against a reasonably experienced Empire player.
In both games I was severely outnumbered. And worse, their 'base' troops were generally as good or better than my base troops (granted they didn't cause fear or have the capacity to be healed) and often even cheaper. AND they have access to elite troops or units (stegadons, steam tanks, cannon, etc) that I could only envy.
I managed a crushing victory over the lizardmen (shouldn't have, if he actually knew what he was doing), and pulled off a draw against the empire in the very last turn when my prince's curse managed 5 wounds on the steam tank that killed him. The steam tank that, at 300 points, was really not that much more expensive than my prince who was pretty much nude except for chariot with (normal) flail and d6+1 impact hits.
The empire troops, including handgunners who have as good or better range than my bowmen and in most cases are hitting easier as well, are basically the same cost. Empire heroes can be given awesome upgrades (flying mounts, war alters, barded steeds in a unit of similarly barded heavily-armoured troops) that I cannot.
You might point out that I pulled off a draw, I should be happy with that, but there are some severe flaws in the Tomb Kings in the current environment (unless you go a cheese all bowmen-scorpions-catapult army), the biggest being the point cost of troops. I have bought all the ushabti models, but frankly I don't think I will ever use them below 3,000 points because of their ridiculously high cost.
we HAVE to take at least 2 heroes, and both are quite expensive, especially once tooled up. And I learnt to my regret how easily they can be killed as the very first (100 point) cannon shot of the game killed my (300+ point) casket of souls (luckily not my hierophant).
Anyway my point: are Tomb Kings over-priced, especially compared to the newer armies? Vampire Counts, being quite similar, are a good comparator. Tomb Guard are the same price as Grave Guard, but they get access to vampires that mean they can march at all times, have heavier armour and more options to revive dead troops. VC also have a lot of other units that make the Grave Guard look pedestrian.
Are we over-priced? What changes would you like to see - in terms of current units and prices, I'm not talking about a wishlist of new troops or changes.
Last edited by JustinR; April 13th, 2010 at 00:57.
well some things are a bit pricey. I wish our basic skeletons were like 6 points, i would take like 80-100 every game as compared to the 50-75 i now take. as it stands though IMO i wouldn't say that TK are that overpriced. we get fear, ITP, the ability to heal, and with our magic we can control the battle pretty easy i find.
I find that beyond having the undead special rule TK and VC cant be compared. a few big things over VC 1 being our shooting phase, 2 being our spells always going off and never miscasting. 3 our ability to have 2 movement phases (kinda), 2 shooting/ combat phases. sure they have units like blood knights and such but they pay quite a premium for such troops (in points and money i might add)
5000 Pts of Undeath descend upon you....
Yeah, I see your point. It's always fraught with danger trying to compare armies.
In some ways I guess my point is that other armies have access to both troops that are cheaper than our 'cheap' troops and troops that are better than our 'best' troops. It's fair enough that you face a skaven horde army, but when you are facing empire, it gets a bit galling.
Luyp, are you based in Australia or nearby, or just sitting up really late?
Most armies are an edition ahead of TKs. When we get our next book, we should have troops more in line with the cost of others, 6pt skellies (with properly set-out equipment options rather than as they currently are, which is their major downfall), reasonable priced Cavalry, etc. In general though, TK armies do tend to lack on size a but, due to the way that "the total is greater than the sum of the individual parts" applies to the army. And of course the many benefits we get compared to some armies, being Undead and all that
Edit: Oh yeah, and Tomb Guards of course need some points and/or equipment changes, in line with Grave Guard please! lol.
Last edited by Phoenix; April 13th, 2010 at 02:15.
Back on topic:
I would easily be able to repeat what the others have said, but I won't do that. Seems unnecessary I have one question though. How the hell did the empire player destroy the Casket if the Priest was still alive? May it be that you're talking about different Liches?
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If you think handgunners are better than TK bowmen, wait until you're trying to shoot at a unit of skinks inside a building at a range of 23" after you've moved. What's that, a 23 to-hit for the handgunners? The very strength of our archers is that the 5+ to-hit is unmodifiable. Being able to move and shoot without penalty alone is invaluable...but in any situation other than the most favorable (shooting at close range at a unit in the open without having moved), TK shooters are as good as or (much) better than empire.
You say the range is "as good or better than" ours? Are you kidding? 24" is 24"...it's as good, full stop. Yout don't bolster your case by stretching things with "or better than" when "exactly equal" is the simple truth and the more complex truth is that the effective range of TK bowmen is 28" when you consider that they can move without any shooting penalties. It would be far more fair to say that TK bowmen have an effective range that is "as good as or better than" handgunners.
Yes, we spend half our points making our characters effective, and yes the requirement to have two of them hurts at low points levels...but our army is far more dependant than most on character support, be it monstrously good combat characters or the spamming of critical incantations...it's what we do! I'll take a tooled tomb prince over a tooled empire captain all day long and twice on Sunday.
Would I like to see a points reduction for certain units to bring us in line with other armies' codex creep? Sure. But your specific complaints about our archers and characters miss the mark. Not only is a first turn cannon shot killing your casket statistically unlikely (random point of impact AND random bounce), you'd ba an absolute idiot to make a sitting duck (the casket) your heiro, so the "luckilly not my heiro" comment exposes either extreme ignorance on our part (are you really such a tyro that it's blind luck that the casket priest wasn't your heiro) or extreme overestimation of our ignrorance (do you think we think it's a tossup whether or not the guy that causes crumble should have the 165 point potentially-devastating-to-the-enemy magic item that he has to discard if he wants to sidestep a cannonball?)
Bottom line is, yes, you have a point that some TK units are overpriced in comparison to equivalent units in other armies...but you go so far out of your way to overstate your case that you instead completely undermine it. Let the facts speak for themselves, if you're right (and you are), exaggeration only makes you look wrong.
IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
Brets 1997-1999 __ TK since 2009 __ Empire since 2010
also, I was under the impression that no randomisation was required for his cannonball to hit the priest. reading the rulebook it is clearly stated under the rules for the cannon (page 87) that "in the case of skirmishing units and war machines and their crew ... any model touched by the line drawn by the bouncing ball is hit". The casket rules state it is treated exactly like any other war machine, ergo he was free to draw a line at the priest and if it went through him, he was hit.
with regard to the range comment, yes 24" is 24". he also had a unit of crossbowmen who had 30" range and a bunch of other heavy units that basically ignored bow shots so could move forward largely unimpeded. The extremely cheap shooting he could put on the board made it suicide to move forward, but he still could because ST3 bow shots weren't that scary.
I could also mention that a ST3 bow shot is barely even comparable to a ST4 armour piercing handgun, especially when you can upgrade with a champion with a long rifle who can pick out whoever he wants to shoot in the unit.
I completely agree that the shooting rule is fantastic against those skirmishing guys at long range in hard cover when I've moved. but the reality is, I'd love to be hitting on 3+ with a BS3 guy against a large target at close range, or be able to stand and shoot.
I dont know how to say this....
But do you read my mind?
I've had these same complaints...for who knows how long!
I have usually found our shooting to be of not great effect (NOT COUNTING Catapults). It gains its most advantage against long range skirmishers, who happen to be hiding in a forest, after we have moved in the movement phase.
But like you said, compared to other armies our plain Str 3 Bows just dont seem to cut it.
The best way to use them though, is large amounts of bowmen firing twice a turn. The advantage of our basic fighting unit also being able to fire bows means we can easily have large amounts of them.
Though I do agree with you, there is no reason we cant stand and shoot (esp now that a banshee can)
okay. We are now the oldest Army Book and its showing.
You are correct, it is sad, but its common for me to be outnumbered. Our units are just pricey, our hero's are very pricey.
We are also kinda soft with average toughness for a lot of our troops(not including Prince/Kings)
But the worse part is our armour is terrible. 5+ save for Chariots, Ushabti, Scorpion,
And when you talk about going against empire. I feel your pain i know what it is like to try to against Str4 piercing shots.
As for what you said about Point reduction.
Yes, i would i like that. I think we need that, or stat increase/ or upgrades to units
a Simple Comparison
Grave Guard/Tomb Guard
Grave have the same price, but get heavy armor. Stuff like that is just a bummer
Last edited by gdsora; April 14th, 2010 at 16:33.