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  1. #1
    Son of LO ikbuh's Avatar
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    Possibly starting Tomb Kings. Lotta questions, kind long.

    I have been looking at starting another Warhammer army and I had a be debate in my head over whether or not I wanted to start Warriors of Chaos or Tomb Kings. Ultimately, I had decided that I want to get WoC, but my one friend (Ogres and just bought Brets) did nothing but complain about everything in the book. I mean everything. Anything I mentioned he had a comment for and I'm sick of it without even playing the army yet. Mind you, I play Wood Elves so I was going for something quite the opposite of what they are, you know something with armor and that is actually playable? No matter what I play, he will complain, but at least he can complain less about Tomb Kings I hope. Also, don't think that I'm being bullied into TK because I had almost started them back before the new book came out, but I was in a tough spot monetarily and had to put it on hold. It's just my decision over the two armies has been shifted and frankly I really hope there are things to make him complain more after I start TK because it will be funny.

    Anyway, I have read the armybook and read through as many posts as I can stand, so I think I have a fair grasp over the concepts of the Army. Of course, I do have questions as any potential player might.

    1. Are the Sepulchral Stalkers really as bad as people say they are? They are one of the big things that I loved when the new TKs stuff came out and I almost bought them just to have the models. Reading their rules, I can tell that they sadly don't seem to be as good as the stupid looking knights, but they do seem to have a purpose (Popping our near WMs or hunting wizards or something). The biggest disappointment I see with them is not being able to stand and shoot. How penalized would I really be if I took them, and if I do, what's the best set up? I was thinking simple unit(s) of 3.

    2. Warphinx+Princes. I really love the Khemrian Warpshinx as well. The look is really nice and it has a good set of rules to match (the only problem being Shades/Sun, but that's more of an armywide thing xD). I will probably be fielding one when I hit 1500 points, but I was wondering if it's worth giving one to a prince? The special slot is rather full of good things and I will probably be taking some not-so-good things (see 1) that may bog it down further and I could free up points by putting the Sphinx on a Prince. The biggest downside I see to this is wasting MWBD while the second makes it a prime target for spells. However, since it would be a Large Target, the princes Ld9 would go much further.

    3. How important is a BSB for Tomb Kings? Personally, the BSB seems a little counter intuitive. The BSB has the option of taking wounds for a Prince/King, but most of the time the BSB is worth more VPs than the prince. BSB+ decent Armor and no weapons=235 VPs, and most tomb princes are worth 150ish VPs unless they're the general. Obviously you wouldn't have him take a wound unless it was for the general, but still. How important are they?

    4. Everyone keeps making mention of the Necrotect, and I guess I'm missing why. Is giving skittles hatred that good? A 6+ regen save to constructs is alright, but nothing jump for joy about or am I wrong here?

    5. I plan on buying two Battalions and my only concern with them is the same for every battalion: Cavalry. The deciding factor that originally tipped the scales to WoC was knowing that I was going to use everything in the battalion and I could keep buying them to my hearts content. I looked at the TK box and cringed at the cavalry+$120 price tag, especially when comparing it too the $100 WoC box. Doing the math of the box, even if the horses were never used, I would still save like $2.25, so while it's still a deal, I fear that two is the limit on the number I will be buying. Chariots are good, I have gathered that, but is anyone going to be using more than 6? And what about all those horses? If they are going to be fielded, I understand that they should be archers, but I see no discussion about them and they don't appear in any lists that I have read. How useful are they, really?

    6. My group tends to play a lot of smaller points games (1-1.5 usually) and most of my starting games will be at 1000 points. Grabbing two battalions, I have put together this list:

    Lord:
    High Liche Priest - 210
    L4

    Hero:
    Tomb Prince - 154
    Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon

    Core:
    Skeleton Warriors x50 - 230
    Full Command

    Chariots x3 - xxx
    Chariots x3 - xxx

    Skeleton Archers x12 - xxx

    My concerns with that are two fold: The Liche Bunker is rather small and because of that I'm wondering if I should drop L4 for more archers or if I should drop L4 and 2 archers for an Amulet of perseverance. In either case, from here I would like to add Stalkers and/or a War Sphinx and a Casket. I fear I'm falling prey to "ooh shiney" and want to include too much. What should the natural progression be for adding to this list (or another list if this one is wrong =P)?

    Sorry, for the long post, but I figured I would get everything together, and thank you in advance =D

    40k: Silver Angels of Our Martyred Lady 7/2/3 - Daemons of the Great Squiggle! 3/1/0
    Fantasy: Windhost of Athel'Loren 2/0/0 - Daemons of Another Great Squiggle! 0/0/0
    Warmahordes: Legion of Everblight (Absylonia)

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  3. #2
    LO Zealot rothgar13's Avatar
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    1. I think they're quite solid, actually. They're up there in points cost and EBTS isn't the picture of reliability, but they do their job well enough. That said, their job is backfield harassment and then running in to support an infantry block (preferably Tomb Guard or something like that) - don't ask them to do more than that.

    2. Warsphinxes are generally best fielded on their own - you really have to do some crazy stuff with a Tomb Prince for him to trump the Tomb Guard riders' contributions, and having him up on a monster makes him quite vulnerable to artillery-style shooting, to say nothing of Pit/Purple Sun.

    3. Tomb Heralds suck, and the BSB upgrade is unnecessary. I'd recommend avoiding them altogether.

    4. Skeletons having Hatred... meh. Halberd Tomb Guard or Great Weapon Ushabti having Hatred (although the Ushabti lose 1" of movement for it)? Oh, yes! That's the reason a lot of people are high on the Necrotect.

    5. Horse Archers are actually rather useful, especially if you're not bringing Carrion. They have a lot of mobility and are annoying enough. The big deal on them is having Scout, because it helps provide a "first wave" while you wait for Stalkers or the like to pop up and do their thing.

    6. Combine your Chariots - S5 Impact Hits are where it's at, especially considering you don't have any other heavy hitters in your army. I think 50 Skellies in a block at this points total is overkill - remember that they can't kill anything by themselves. Drop them to 39+Prince, spend what you save on Archers.

    The first step in progression I'd make is to get Tomb Guard - heavy infantry wins games in Warhammer. Next, Warsphinxes and a Casket are the order of the day. After that, I'd look to incorporate the Horse Archers and some Stalkers for backfield harassment.
    Last edited by rothgar13; January 18th, 2012 at 05:36.

  4. #3
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    I agree with most of that ... I have my qualms with 3x2 chariots, both in terms of cost and in terms of maneuverability. I prefer units of four myself, three feels like it's short a few wounds, and sometimes you're even able to get that fourth D6 of impact hits in.

    The prince on a sphinx... My biggest concern isn't that it's less effective than a sphinxload of tomb guard (it is!), it's that it eats up your hero points allowance. I'd only take one if I'm spamming sphinxes and can't fit any more into specials and am insisting on warsphinxes over necrosphinxes. Then it might make sense.

    Um, a text can bring a lot to a skittle unit. Five wide and as deep as the eye can see is the way to go. Then put the tect on the corner, then the prince, then the champ. Challenge with the champ. Now the enemy has a problem. Half of his unit is forced to attack the chars, and half is forced to attack the skittles, while his champ or char is wasted on my 'first to be reraised and recycled back into a challenge' champion. With decent saves on both chars, combined with their attacks, you'll often win combat with what is nominally a tarpit! Won't work against great weapon marauders as well, but there's great power in preventing the enemy from simply throwing all of his attacks at the skittles in the hope of crumbling you out without ever taking a swing at the expensive characters. But you need exactly two characters side by side on the edge of your formation to force him to divide his attacks so evenly. Why the tect on the outside? The enemy's center column, across from the champion, can choose to attack either the prince or the troops that way. So can the one directly in front of your corner model... So, from that position working inward, the first model can potentially be attacked by two columns, three, if the enemy is wider than you, but need not be attacked at all, unless the enemy is wider, in which case one column must attack him. The second position faces a potential to be attacked by three columns in all cases, except that the champion removes one potential attacker (but not the supporting attacks from behind him) by challenging. So if the enemy is five wide, like you, the corner character faces fewer potential attacks, so you put the t4 guy there where it's safer. If the enemy is 7 or 10 wide, the potential number of attackers faced is the same in both positions... Incidentally, even if the enemy does take down the tect, the number of wounds caused against his T4 and decent save is bound to be less than what the same attacks would have achieved against the troops, so even in death, he shifts CR in your favor...
    Last edited by Marnepup; January 18th, 2012 at 05:39.

  5. #4
    Son of LO ikbuh's Avatar
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    Huh, that's pretty interesting, though I'd worry about coughing up VPs via loosing the Prince/Tect. Not to mention loosing the prince would loose a general/MWBD.

    How do people usually field tomb guard? I hope it's in fairly small units because $42 for 10 20mm models is robbery.
    40k: Silver Angels of Our Martyred Lady 7/2/3 - Daemons of the Great Squiggle! 3/1/0
    Fantasy: Windhost of Athel'Loren 2/0/0 - Daemons of Another Great Squiggle! 0/0/0
    Warmahordes: Legion of Everblight (Absylonia)

  6. #5
    LO Zealot rothgar13's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, no. If you bring Tomb Guard, you tend to bring a lot of 'em. 30-40 is what I usually see.

    As for losing the 'tect, not a big deal - he costs about as much as a chaff unit (30 skavenslaves), so those VP's typically don't make a huge difference. The Prince dying can be a problem, but you can kit the Prince out to be quite survivable - for example, Armor of Destiny + Shield. At WS5/T5/W3/4+/4++, most enemies will opt to attack the brittle Skellies over the rock-hard Prince.
    "The best defense is a good offense." -Gen. George S. Patton

    My philosophy on gaming, courtesy of Herm Edwards.

  7. #6
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    Right. Which is why I call him an "armored prince". There's actual value in forcing the enemy to waste attacks on him instead of on his unit. And the tect, with two T4 wounds for cheap, is partly there to seem like a more attractive target than the prince. If the enemy throws (assuming they're wider than your five model front, but with A1) seven or eleven (horde) attacks at the unit, and six or nine at the tect (remembering that the champion is in a challenge with one enemy model), and none at the MWBD character, that's the best possible scenario for you. 6-9 attacks makes 3-5 hits. At S5, the tect may well die, but the CR involved is less than if the attacks had gone against skittles. At S4, he probably lives, and at S3, he could well come out unharmed. Then he gets some S4 attacks and the prince gets some of those or some S6 ones, generally hitting on 3s to the enemy's 4s... the prince and the tect about double the price of the unit, but ws5, hatred, S4/6 attacks, ld9 (in case the hiero goes down), and siphoning off half of the enemy unit's attacks... Worth the price. Without the prince, the skittle block isn't worth 4 ppm, and without the second character (the tect), the enemy is free to ignore the prince and win on crumble by throwing all of it's attacks at T3 models with a 6+/6++ save!

    ...and I use a unit of 20 TG (7x3 with character) to great effect. Between the lore attribute and the sotul, they stay super healthy!
    Last edited by Marnepup; January 20th, 2012 at 04:34.

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