Welcome to Librarium Online!
Ok so I've noticed that spread through out the forums are different topics about how to play certain armies. I know that most of us have experience with an army outside Tomb Kings, so lets pull our knowledge together and create one big post on tactics vs. different armies. This can be especially useful to those people who are just getting into the game or those who, like me, aren't familiar with every army and how to approach them. I'll be making an index in this post listing topics under each army and which post you can view to help address that. Hopefully if we get enough imput back into this we can get a mod to sticky it.
Beasts of Chaos
-Bretonnian Overview; Spector (pg. 1, post #4)
Daemons of Chaos
Dogs of War
Hordes of Chaos
-Tips to dealing with Slaanesh; oldWitheredCorpse (pg. 1, post #2)
Orcs & Goblins
As a Tomb Kings player, you should know the strengths and weaknesses of your own army and how to exploit them. But, if you have played a Tomb Kings vs. Tomb Kings match and have some useful tricks or information, feel free to list them.
Tomb Kings vs. Vampire Counts: Unit Strengths and Comparisons; Carnifexus (pg. 2, post #12)
-Wood Elves: What to Watch Out for and How to Counter; RedRose (pg. 1, post #3)
-Treemen and Magic; Mister Molasses (pg. 2, post #11)
Last edited by Spector; March 6th, 2007 at 18:53.
My experience is limited, but against Slaanesh I'd suggest:
*Don't be afraid of attacking, Slaanesh usually have low T and armor.
*Don't count on fear, most of their units are immune to psychology. OTOH, one of two of their spells don't work against undead.
*Crook & flail of radiance! Slaanesh hate it when you have a strike first weapon.
*Magic weapons on heroes, tomb blades and SSC to counter ward saves (deamonettes).
*Beware their speed: counter with march blocking.
*Keep your hierophant out of their 20" charge range.
*Don't get charged, they usually have a buckload of attacks to kill your weak skellies.
*Shoot their flyers with unerring accuracy.
*Don't bury your units, they won't stand back and wait to be stabbed. Use scorpions for flanking, march blocking and character assasination.
The Wood Elf army is based off of their mobility, their superior unit stats, and their ability to remain hidden in woods.
So first off, do not go hunting for them, then the player will just be able to set up one of your units and just wipe them out. You should deploy your units defensively, and make sure you have your flanks gaurded (anything will do as long as it keeps the crafty elves from getting a flank charge).
Things that can be Nasty
way watchers, generally a problem, but if you have any arches in your army your golden. The way watchers will usually have a -3 to hit(soft cover, skirmish, and forest stalker special rule) but with out flat 5 to hit, we're ahead of the game. The reason for this is that they pose a good threat to a character with their lethal shot(sure they cant snipe, but if they get your chariots down your tomb king/prince might take a hard hit).
If your dealing with a good bit of dryads, dont be afraid to use the magic missile instead of summoning. Magic allows them no ward save, and in combat it would be much more difficult. But if you have the inevitability of them getting into combat, counter with tombgaurd, Magic str 4 attacks is a bad day for wood elves.
For treekin, if you are feeling lucky you can shoot your catapult at them. This is made hard though, due to the fact they are small units to hit(or atleast for me it would be hard). The other way(although it will cost some DAMAGE TO YOURSELF) is to run Ushabti into them.
The two units are almost the same, exept that Ushabti have 1 higher Str, and Treekin have 1 Higher T and a 5+ ward.
The treeman, is going to be a problem. The Ushabti could kill him, but he would take alot of the unit with him with him. If he is an Ancient decked out with spites, i would dedicate a good amount to his demise, or atleast something that would tie him up(swarms, scorpions, giant ass brick of skellies). As of now i really am to new to TK to have a sure fire win against him, so we'll come back to him later.
Their warhawks should be on the "to kill first turn" list. If the wood elf player knows about how bad it is if we lose the Heirophant, than he will suicide hit and run the unit he is in. These flyers have 2 wounds a piece, so the average unit of 3 has 6 wounds, but a 6+ save and no ward. So anything that wounds them has a good chance of dropping them. When i play TK or VC with my Wood Elfs, these are the guys who usually take the characters(with exeptions to vampires and what not). So again, watch these sneaky devils.
Wild riders, again lightly armourd and...well they have that damnable 5+ ward! These guys have a magic resistance of 1 and a 6+save against magic so a magic missile storm here would not work as well with other units(such as dryads). For these guys, shoot them down to a number that will have a lower impact and(i know this sounds kinda strange) but if the unit is below 4 models...let them charge you (Note, alot of players run about 5, although some like myself run about 8. So depending on the player this can be ether very easy or slightly hard). If they get charged they get +1 attack, and against wood elves these guys will be gunning for your flank(no ranks=Welves BFF) so you wont want to split your line iby charging them(unless you are going to use chariots, in which case go to town.
Wardancers, again our arrows of asp put us ahead of the game, because these guys skirmish and will probly be found hiding in woods or warping from wood to wood(curtsy of the moonstone, and it only will happen if he has a character in the unit), so our straight 5+ to hit doesn't look so shabby. If they get into combat, they will crush you. The unit is built to win combat off of a kill only basis, and with a shadowdance they will have 3 attacks each(4 for the champion), if due to our crumble rules, they will basicly double their effectiveness. Say they kill about 8, we have full ranks, standard, outnumber. We then lose another 4 guys, and chances are the only guy swinging is the champion(good luck hitting with their WS 6) For there on out they will just dismantle the unit. One way to keep them busy though it to send a rather large unit of skellies at them, and just summon more(2d6) and keep them there for about 3 turns. The wardancers also have to switch their dances every turn so they will probly go back in for between +1 attack and 4+ ward.
Alter Nobles. A pain. They usually carry the Hail of Doom arrow(if you dont know what that is...its just as the name suggest...) Here our good ol' archers come in handy yet again(anyone seeing a pattern??) He moves fast so he can be hard to draw LOS to. He cannot join units though and will only play a support role in combat(gets 5 attacks str 6 the way most put him out. No push over but no vampire) If the Wood Elf takes lore of beats. Allways save dispell for bears anger on this guy. 8 attacks, str 7(or 8? havnt used the spell in a while) and T 4. Very tough, can take out vampires. Here, shoot him down, if not, he will die second round of combat if you swing at him(great weapon makes him strike last)
Wood Elf Magic:
This is for everything (branchwraith, spellsinger, and spellweaver). They all play pretty much the same role. If the branchwraith is a caster, its just for dispel dice so no worries from there. The other two though take the lore of loren, and the Weaver(a lord choice) can chose from some other lores but will most likly take lore of Loren or lore of Beasts. Loren is support casting(units cause fear, units move through all terrain normally, units cant be hit by non-magic missiles, units get more move, the like.) so its nothing to worry about too much, just very annoying and helps them get to combat. This all changes though when you enter the realm of the trees. They will start using tree singing in its offensive manner and their treeman will use his bound spell to also hurt you more. So from that your looking at about 3d6 str 4 hits, its level one so they will probably get it off. To take care of this? Well, if a mage is in the open?? blast him with swarms or scorpions. If hes in a unit?? Well id say that that unit would not be going to combat and chances are it is in the glade guard unit so dispose of him the same, scorpions and swarms.
Your archers can come is some handy, you hit on a flat rate, and you will want to shoot some of there lightly armoured units down before they can come into combat(and ruin your day).
Your swarms/ scorpions "it came from below..." will ruin their hiding mages, archers, anythings day. Take them.
His treekin is tough, not invicible. Send some Ushabti at him and make sure a litch is close behind to raise them back. Also tomb gaurd can help, they will have a 5+ save, and no ward due to magic attacks.
The Treeman, no sure fire way in my head to kill him, except a lucky shot with the catapult or a bone giant. What worked for me was a combined charge of my chariots and some swarms coming from below right into him. Poison attackes worked wonders along with the good amount of attacks from the chariots.
Do not chase after him!!!! He can run you in circles. learn to exept that for the majority of the time he will only engadge you on his terms.
Set up with protected flanks. You dont want his Glade Riders or Wild Riders to get rid of your ranks now do we?
--hope it helps, and isnt to confusing
Ok my first army was Bretonnians so I'll try to break down the army a bit and see if we can find some chinks in their armor.
Overall Bretonnians can be a very resilient, tough army. Their cavalry are likely the best in the game, sporting a 2+ armor save and more than likely start the game "Praying to the Lady" and going second, earning every model on the board a 6+ ward save (5+ vs. S5 or higher). When they get the charge with lance formation, they can be devestating, hitting with a high armount of S5 or S6 hits. Also, overall, Bretonnians will have a solid leadership (most knights will be Ld. 8, peasants will get to use the knights leadership when within 6"). And to top it all off, Bretonnian Knights (not peasents) get Champions in every unit for free.
However, they are not without their weaknesses. Knights cost a high arount of points, thus limiting the amount of models they will be able to put on the board. Unless the Bretonnian player is playing a mostly peasent list, we will outnumber him. After the first round of combat, knights will lose the huge advantage they had with their lances on the charge. Also, due to the lance formation, the Bretonnian knights will be very succeptable to being flanked. And lastly, Bretonnians stereotypically one of the weakest magic phases in the game. With the strong magic of the Tomb Kings, we can use this to our advantage.
Bretonnian Units: What to Watch Out for and Some Counters
Bretonnian Lords (Lord)/Paladins (Hero):
Bretonnian Lords and Paladins are both solid units that have slightly weaker stat lines than their Tomb King counterparts with the exception of their higher Initiative. They will have the standard 2+ save, sometimes 1+ for the Lord. The Lord also has the option of taking either a pegasus or a hippogryph as his mount instead of the warhorse. It will be uncommon/rare to see either, and especially rare to see the hippogryph, especially in smaller point games, due to the points it will coast. Also their selection of magic weapons is strong and can be fairly painful vs. our fragile units. One option for dealing with these units is to make a character killer King or Prince and to challenge him. A Bretonnian character/champion cannot turn down a challenge without losing the ward save given to them. Something like the Crook & Flail of Radiance or Flail of Skulls works nicely. Another option would be to place the King or Prince in a chariot and try to get the charge in to add the impact hits into combat res as well as challenging.
Prophetess (Lord)/Damsel (Hero):
Bretonnian magic is, for the most part, mediocre at best, and bad at worst. Damsels have access to the Lores of Life and Beasts, with Prophetesses having access to Heavens as well as those 2. In 2000 points or less, its rare (atleast for me) to see or use a Prophetess over a Lord. Most people will take a few level 1 or 2 Damsels and use them as scroll caddies. Most commonly Bret wizards will be placed in archer units, sometimes in the middle of a knight lance formation. For the archers, just use carrions or scorpions/swarms with ICFB to take them out. With the wizard in the lance formation, you will have to wipe the unit, since they will be in the second row and not targetable.
For Core Knights there are 2 types, Knights Errant and Knights of the Realm. Knights of the Realm are the standard Bretonnian knight, will be using lances on the charge and hitting with S5 on the first round of combat. One unit of Knights of the Realm are required for all Bretonnia armies.
Knights Errant are the slightly cheaper form of Knights of the Realm that have WS3 and Ld. 7 instead of the WS4 and Ld. 8 of their more experienced brethern. However, Knights Errant are Impetuous and therfore when within charge range must take a leadership test when within charge range, if they fail the test they must charge. Also on the charge, Knights Errant are Immune to Psychology for the rest of the turn. On top of all this, most units of Knights Errant will take an Erranty Banner, which will add +1S to the Knights Erranty on the charge and subtract Ld. 2 for Impetuous tests, making them S6 on the charge and Ld. 5 for Impetuous tests.
Questing Knights are a special choice for Brets. They have the Questing Vow which makes them immune to Psychology. Questing Knights have S4 vs. S3 of the core knights and can only use great weapons and not lances. The same tactics can be used as with the earlier knights, weather the charge and then flank them and beat them with combat res or outright flank them before they charge. Their great weapons will ensure that they will always strike last when they don't charge, take advantage of this.
Pegasus Knights are another special choice for Brets. They are the flying knights for Bretonnians. The main thing that makes them different from other knights besides that they are flying is that they have 2 wounds, are T4 and the pegasi have 2 S4 attacks compared to the warhorses 1 S3 attack. These guys will be going mage/warmachine hunting or be used to flank/rear charge our units. Plan accordingly.
The last type of knight is the Grail Knight. They have the Grail Vow which makes them Immune to Psychology, they always get the Blessing of the Lady regardless of whether or not the army prays, and makes all the Knight's attacks magical (doesn't effect the steed's attacks). Grail Knights can be a force to reckoned with in close combat. They have WS5, S4 (S6 on the charge), and 2 attacks each. Either hit them hard with whatever ranged attacks (SSC would be great) you can muster, or have a large unit of skeles ready to absorb the charge and flank them.
The best way to deal with the Bret Knights is to soften them up with a catapult if you have one then either take the charge with a unit of Skeles or Tomb Guard and then flank with Ushabiti or chariots or flank them before they get the charge.
The Bretonnian peasant core units come in 2 forms, Men-at-Arms and Peasant Bowman. These units are similar to the Tomb King versions (Warriors and Bowmen respectively) with the exception that men-at-arms get light armor, HW, shields and halberds and Peasant Bowmen have the option to become skirmishers. Our archers, catapult, and magic should be able to thin these guys down enough to make them easily managable to deal with though.
The Bretonnia fast cavalry is the Mounted Yeomen. They can be kitted out similarly to either form of our cavalary and remain fast cav. Most commonly will be used to bait charges and then flee, leaving the charging unit open to a counter charge.
The last peasant-ish unit is a special unit as well, the Grail Reliquae eith Battle Pilgrims (Men-at-Arms with Ld. 8 ). The Reliquae has a unit strength of 6 (+ the number of Pilgrims) as well as 6 wounds and 4 S3 attacks. The Reliquae gives makes the group Stubborn, gives them Hatred, and give the unit the Blessing of the Lady, regardless if the army prays or not. Deal with them similar to any other peasents.
The Field Trebuchet is the only Bretonnian warmachine. It is a stone thrower nearly identical to the SSC but does not have the Skulls of Foe upgrade. Take it out with Scorpions, Carrions, or Swarms.
-Brets have great armor saves, don't expect to be taking too many out with things such as arrows. Our high strength CC units and the SSC can help us out immensely here.
-Bretonnians will get charges off. This is unavoidable. Be prepared for this and be ready to flank their lance formation after the charge. They are extremely vunerable to this.
-Most Bretonnian players will only take wizards as scroll caddies and for anti magic. We should dominate the magic phase the entire game, especially after the removal of said wizards.
-Keep their units bogged down. Big units of skeles, combat res, and flank charges will win the game.
-Bretonnians main strength is hitting hard on the charge, breaking a unit and charging into the next unit. Since Tomb Kings are unbreakable, use this to your advantage.
-All Knights using Lances and Flails are very, very ordinary after their charge.
Last edited by Spector; January 30th, 2007 at 08:35.
This is great, guys. I've indexed the thread.
One thing to consider is that not everybody has their settings set to show the same number of posts per page, so somebody's page 2 might be someone else's page 1.
Thanks for the thorough entries and keep 'em coming! :yes:
Maybe I'm dense and just keep missing it, but I can't find anything in the big rule book or the army book about magic weapons. What is it that they do that they're so important that they keep getting mentioned here?
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains
well, magic weapons, armor, talismans, and other items are under "the armory of nehekara" (sp?) in the tomb king codex and they give you different special effects, such as more attacks, special types of attacks, or boosts to your abilities. They also count as magical attacks. Some units are especially weak against magical attacks(can be a spell, or a magical weapon), dryads and daemons do not get their ward saves against magical attacks. The rules for them in the rule book is right before the lores if I'm not mistaken
I didn't know that they negated ward saves. I have the sixth edition book still, so maybe that's why I couldn't find it. Thanks, Rose.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains
not all ward saves, only ones that state that magical attacks negate the save. so a talisman(or whatever) that says "grants 4+ ward save" will allways have that ward save, but if the talisman says "grants 3+ ward save against non-magical attacks" then the magic weapon will negate it.
--god, i feel like a post whore
If you've got a query about rules then ask it in the rules forum