Tyranid Unit Tactica

[Carnifexus]

Firstly let me say once again an execellant job unfortunately it says i can't give you more rep

I've got some spelling and things i foud plus a few inconsistencys in the math and a general disagreement on some genestealer issues so here we go

Originally Posted by Zerling

Monstrous Creatures being size 3 are targeted by even lascannon on the board.

even=every

Originally Posted by Zerling

This guide to help newbies with effective army building suggestions, common mistakes and strategies explained.

this guide is to

Originally Posted by Zerling

Barbed Strangler –

I think it may help to bold these as ur notes kinda blend in

Originally Posted by Zerling

Hive Mind Powers
Catalyst – give the targeted a brood a strike from the grave.

give the targeted brood

Originally Posted by Zerling

Bad Hive Tyrant Upgrades

cid Maw:

just spelling

Originally Posted by Zerling

[*]Rending Claws: monstrous creatures ignore armour saves and get 2d6 to penetrate armour. This biomorph only gives you the automatic wound on a roll of 6 and 3d6 + 6 to penetrate armour. It also costs you a precious weapon slot.

This seems a little misleading. You roll 2D6 if you roll a 6 on either or both you roll only 1 more D6 and add it to your Str. Where this becomes pointless is that when you roll a 6 you are already glancing AV13 even if you roll a 1 with your other dice.

Originally Posted by Zerling

Devourer Tyrants.
Many people have found that a Devourer equipped Winged Tyrant is more effective at killing Marines. Below are the number of kills for a 6 str, 5 WS and 4BS Tyrant shooting and assaulting marines.
Dual Dev 5.2
Dev & ST 4.25
Dual ST 3.3

Undoubtably the dual devourer kills more. The problem is that once the marines run off your are left out in the open exposed to all available firepower. You want to stay locked in blocking LOS and preventing your expensive winged Tyrant getting shot. People have commented that a dual devourer winged tyrant doesn’t look that good.

3.16 Dead Marines in the shooting phase with a Duel Devourer +1S +1BS Hive Tyrant
Then you can charge another 2.222 dead on the charge = 5.38 dead on the charge.
Duel ST Tyrant = 3.33 Dead
Morale
Assuming you win the combat and its a standard Marine regiment of 10 with Duel Devourers you will lose 0.26 wounds assuming a sarge with a powerfist armed for CC (5 Marines left)
then they will lose the combat and test on a 7 (58% chance to pass). Next round you will cause 1.666 (3 Marines left) wounds they will cause 0.23 wounds and test on a 5 (27% chance to pass)
With Duel ST
In there fightback (7 Marines left) they will cause 0.29 wounds. Testing on a 8 (72% chance to pass). Next round of combat you will kill 2.78 (4 left) Testing on a 6 (42% chance to pass)

Hope this helps remember this is only statistics and the game is decided by dice not statistics

Originally Posted by Zerling

Weapons
The table below shows the chance for one gaunt to kill.

Target Marine Guardsman
Combat 5.6% 16.7%
Devourer 9.9% 33.6%
Devourer + tox 17.6% 43.7%
Fleshborer 12.5% 44.4%
Spinefists 8.3% 37.5%

combat per attack 3.7% and 16.7% respectively
Devourer 2 shots each shot 5.1%(marine) 18.5%(IG) (effectively 10.2% and 37%)
Devourer + tox each shot 9.3% & 25% (effectively 18.6% & 50%)
Fleshborer correct
Spinefist correct

Originally Posted by Zerling

Scything Talons I have never considered ST due to the cost. For the cost of 5 'stealers with EC & ST you can have 6 with just EC. On the charge the ST brood has 20 attacks & the other 18 - little difference. Consider that you take 2 casualties, now both groups get 12 attacks.

Interestingly enough scything talons make genestealers 1.5x more effective for a 25% points increase add to that your EC which as i agree with you is almost a must. and its a 20% increase in points for a 50% increase in effectiveness or 33% increase on the charge. I think this justify's the biomorph as one that could very well be highly useful...

Originally Posted by Zerling

Bad Carnifex Upgrades [*]Regeneration: this is an extremely expensive bio-morph, which doesn’t work reliably. If you really want regeneration have a look at "Old One Eye".

while i wait to put it on my toughest fecis, regeneration is far from useless. For instance in your first turn 5 lascannons fire at you carnifex which had the defensive biomorphs of +1 wound and Regeneration. 4 wound... standard odds at the start of your turn you can roll 4 dice any sixes = a regenerated wound. Not only that but any subsequent turns you can roll those dice again. The best part is that by turn 2 your flying Hive tyrant will cause a distraction as will your fast broods and lictors plus you would hope to stun any tanks with mass lascannons now you might only have 1 lascannon firing at you and if it wounds you can roll to regenerate each turn. Its like a continous invunerable save on a 6. Note i never take regen without taking first +1 wound.

Originally Posted by Zerling

[*]Thornback: When you win combat this will usually be a -1 or -2 morale modifier. Winning combat against fearless units gives you extra hits, unfortunately they still make armour saves. Winning combat against Dreadnoughts will give you an extra glancing hit. The benefits of this biomorph are worth it.

I believe this Biomorph is execellant and you seem to as well, however you have put it in the useless biomorphs category??

Originally Posted by Zerling

[*]Tusked: This only gives you one more attack on the charge. And it costs more than scything talons.

yes but its not a weapon symbiote not to be overlooked IMO

Not trying to be picky its an excellent tactica these are just my opinions

Carni

[Zlatko]

Devourer Tyrants.
Many people have found that a Devourer equipped Winged Tyrant is more effective at killing Marines. Below are the number of kills for a 6 str, 5 WS and 4BS Tyrant shooting and assaulting marines.
Dual Dev 5.2
Dev & ST 4.25
Dual ST 3.3

I don't see how you got those figures.

Dual Devourer tyrant's is WS4 and has S5 devourer with toxin sacks. Remember devourer is S-1. Devourer is Assault 2X, and the tyrant has 3 attacks, therefore 12 attacks. Also note Twin-linked and living ammunition.


2x TL Devourer
Step by step
-------------------------------
12 shots

4/6 chance to hit with rerolls to miss

10.66 hits
-------------------------------
4/6 chance to wound Reroll misses

9.48 Wounds

Now the armour save

2/6 chance of penetrating armour

3.16 kills
-------------------------------
Now for 2ST

5 attacks, 6 on the charge

4/6 chance to hit

3.33 hits

4 hits on the charge
-------------------------------
5/6 to wound

2.77 wounds

3.33 wounds on the charge
-------------------------------
No armour save. TMC rule

2.77 Kills Durning combat

OR

3.33 Kills on the charge
-------------------------------

I'm not denying the effectiveness of devourers, but they arn't THAT great against MEQ armies, ST just seems more versitile on a winged tyrant since you can hit hard against units with 2/3+ saves, insta kill T3 (pesky swarms) AND won't be a sitting duck to those nasty lascannons, railguns and other ranged meanies. Great tactica though, must of taken a lot of time and effort to write.

[Zlatko]

Wow, sorry to tell you but actually a lot of your stats are slightly off. You're occasionly forgetting about AP values and twin-linked/Living ammo. I'll fix it up tomorrow when i get home.

Weapons
The table below shows the chance for one gaunt to kill.

Target Marine Guardsman
Combat 5.6% 16.7%
Devourer 10.1% 37%
Devourer + tox 18.5% 50%
Fleshborer 12.5% 44.4%
Spinefists 8.3% 37.5%


EDIT Whoops, sorry for double post, I didn't see the edit button.

[Paladin2ez]

Okay, let me check the math:

Originally Posted by Zlatko

2x TL Devourer
3.16 kills

Okay, thats right. It boils down to:
12 shots * (8/9) Chance to Hit * (8/9) Chance to wound * (1/3) Armor Penetration = 3.16

Originally Posted by Zlatko

-------------------------------
Now for 2ST

2.77 Kills Durning combat

3.33 Kills on the charge
-------------------------------

The math is right for that one too. Again the equation is:
5 attacks * (2/3) Chance to hit * (5/6) Chance to wound = 2.77
6 charge attacks * (2/3) Chance to hit * (5/6) Chance to wound = 3.33

However with Carni's and Zerling's numbers the real change comes in with adding the charge to the Devourers:
12 shots * (8/9) Chance to Hit * (8/9) Chance to wound * (1/3) Armor Penetration = 3.16
4 charge attacks * (2/3) Chance to hit * (5/6) Chance to wound = 2.22
3.16 + 2.22 = 5.38 MEQ kills on one turn.

Originally Posted by Zlatko

I'm not denying the effectiveness of devourers, but they arn't THAT great against MEQ armies, ST just seems more versitile on a winged tyrant since you can hit hard against units with 2/3+ saves, insta kill T3 (pesky swarms) AND won't be a sitting duck to those nasty lascannons, railguns and other ranged meanies.

The only thing is that with the 2TL Dev, you can blast a swarm, and then get into CC with a 2/3+ save unit and still kill them nicely. The big thing is the addition of 3.16 MEQ kills a turn. A ST won't be able to do that. Remember, it will be shoot then assault. You can find that group, shoot them and then assault them. Actually if you can assault a nice group that you won't kill in a turn, you can shoot another group then assault the original and keep your tyrant alive through a turn, sometimes its good to be tied up a little while. I would definitely say its versatile when used correctly, but thats true of all of the units.

Well, thats just my math check here.

And Zerling, this is an awesome post! I'm gland to see the newer version and I've started already taking some suggestions to heart. Keep it up!

[tedbob]

I know this isnt in context but does anyone else feel that the spore mines are now almost useless with their small blasts? It makes taking biovores ridiculous since youd almost do better buying the fast attack. I remeber the good ol days of taking out 4 or 5 firewarriors with some well placed toxin mines. Does anyone agree?

[Hivefleet Hades]

Originally Posted by tedbob

I know this isnt in context but does anyone else feel that the spore mines are now almost useless with their small blasts? It makes taking biovores ridiculous since youd almost do better buying the fast attack. I remeber the good ol days of taking out 4 or 5 firewarriors with some well placed toxin mines. Does anyone agree?

yeeess i do! BioVores got complained about allot in tournies, and so i wasnt suprised to see them get nerfed in the new codex, its sad i know, the good old days of 3 ord templates decimating squads of carapace armed guardsmen, Dark reapers or firewarriors per turn are over.

same with lictor...they used to tie up large fireblocks of enemy troops, or stop your opponent deploying troops in cover and where effective from turn 1. Now lictors have 1 less wound and cant tie up enemy units aswell. Fragile, expenisve points sinks if you ask me :cry:

[tedbob]

I never see why people are so afraid of Lictors they are pretty wussy for their point costs...I would love to see them with a higher tough/save that would make em awesome. Though I think they do well in conjunction with gaunts since they now have feeder tendrils allowing them to hit alot easier....have you guys seen the forgeworld sporecluster thing? I think there was a thread of the special creatures for nids and it was on there...I want about 100 of em....of a phat biovore that can launch em....

p.s. sorry randomness very much sugar....:w00t:

[Leech]

I have to tell you that Lictors and carnifexes are not subject to instinctive tests. They are fearless. Like Spore mines for example who don't take instinctive tests.

[Dreachon]

Unfortunatly beeing fearless only works when making morale checls, IB is a Leadership test, in the case of rippers it actually mentinos they don't have to take an IB test but not with the fex or lictor.

[Insanelicense]

In reference to the amount of kills a tyrant gets in close combat, and then how many it takes, is that assuming the models being attacked are fearless? because i'd like to see the stats if the enemy had failed the morale check they need to pass to assault a tyrant.