Welcome to Librarium Online!
So I played this last night tower match vrs ogres. The 2nd magic phase went very well, but took my till turn 7 to win the tower from some ogre bulls. I just got a zombie dragon and wanted to try it out. I'm not sure this unit is worth the points; but it was very fun flying around the board causing mayhem. I was able to take out a war machine and summon some zombies to cover my escape to attack the tower.
Vampire Lord Trickster's Helm(ReRoll hits), Red Fury(Each unsaved attack grants another attack), Avatar of Death(Heavy Armor), Infinite Hatred(ReRoll failed hits), Sword of Striking(+1 to hit) Crown of the Damned (+4 ward save stupidity)
Vampire Forbidden Lore Death, Talisman of Lycni(Movement to 9), Power Scroll (Any double results in unresistable cast)
Vampire Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred, Blood Drinker
Konrad von Carstein
Wight King Drakenhof Banner
2 Cairn Wraith
1 Tomb Banshee
6 Blood Knight
19 Gave Guard, Banner of Barrows
28 Crypt Ghouls
1 Crypt Ghast
I had two groups of Ghouls same size
1 Skeleton Champion
So I stuck the mounted vamp in with the knights.
Wright King in one ghoul team
Worked out well, I'll add more if anyone has a question. I use an excel sheet to create lists, just wondering how many people do this?
This site has been very nice to read as I get into the game, so thanks to those who post.
i'd also take your general off his dragon for now. you don't want to be cavalier with your general. if he dies, it's game over!
as for other ideas;
- please lose the jerky purple sun bomb... seriously, it's not fun and if you spam him alot, you'll suddenly find that no one wants to play you! (except other players who think they're 'uber because they can turn1 wipe you out with multiple dwellers below)
- try keeping your lord with the rest of your army. he's too important to have flying off. his support - especially if you add to his magical abilities can really make the rest of your otherwise over-priced crappy units will start to hold their own!
- drop the dickenhof banner. it's way too expensive, and you could get another hero like a cheapo necro! (who becomes a source for multiple vanhel's danse!)
- the wraiths are too small to last. a single magic missile will do them in. so either invest more pts into the unit a get 5 or so, or else trade them in for a black coach! the coach is epic now, (easily our best unit), and while it may steal some of your dice, it will also steal your opponent's dice too!
- skellies are really only usefull as a spear hoard... sorry, but skellies are pretty sucky. i've tried them with sword & board, but for the same cost, you can get ghouls who are tougher and attack better.
now a unit of 40+ skellies w/spears in a hoard formation will at least drop a few enemies... that same unit hit by a casting of vanhel's or speed of light or wyssan's wildform will now tear other core units short of saurus or chaos warriors to pieces!!!
overall, you'll find that VC's are now one of the trickier armies to use in 8th. we lost alot of our biggest advantages, but gained little to nothing in return...
we win by using a fairly standard army build and plenty of buff spells to cover the fact that all of our units - especially our core are seriously over-priced!
hope this helps,
for someone who's preaching originality and not using the "same old builds", you didn't offer many suggestions outside of the ordinary. "Every army needs a block of grave guard with great weapons at 25-30 strong." "Every army needs a black coach." "Skeletons suck unless they are in horde formation (and have MASSIVE buffs)".
Don't trash someone's list simply becasue its not what you would do. Sometimes, people like to try something new. Might not be a new tactic, but its something they've never tried. I say keep the sun-bomb if you know you'll be going up against someone where it can be effective. If the opponent doesn't like it, and gets fed up, then its thier job to find a way around it. Just because I have a better tank doesn't mean we're going to stop fighting. It means you're going to go make an even better tank, or a way to really mess mine up. My suggestion is to do what you enjoy. You'll learn alot more from trying things on your own than you will from reading these posts.
experiment 626, I don't mean to slam you like this. You've provided some amazing insight and have helped me in the past, and I generally value your opinion. But I do think its a bit hypocritical to complain about someone using cookie cutter builds, when thats all you're suggesting here.
- you don't need a grave guard block at all. but, grave guard work much better when run w/great weapons which in itself nessessitates a large unit. (due to a lack of armour save at this point, and the fear most opponent's associate with the unit in general).
if you only try to run say 15-20 w/GW's, then they'll lose unless you get certain spells off to compensate for the ASL & 5+ save. to take only a small unit like this is basically handing victory pts to your opponent since it lacks survivability.
- again, i didn't say 'you must take a black coach'. just that a black coach is a better use of pts over a unit of just 3 models who will get blasted by magic and are very difficult to heal back up.
- btw, skellies do suck when not run as spear-hoards because their stats are so terrible compared to the pts investment... let's face it, fear is almost pointless now, so a skeleton should really cost 2-3pts less than what they currently do! so, to compensate for the fact that 2 units of skeletons will struggle to bring down more than 3-4 enemies, it's far better to combine them into a hoard. and since skellies only have 1 attack, the upgrade for spears is a better point-usage than going for a ghoul hoard (who will lose attacks at this point).
- our core is crap, plain and simple. without magical buffs and with how crumbling works now, our core will never win in a strait-up fight without character & magical support.
thus, it's highly adivsable to always have a necro or two around since they will always have access to vanhel's danse which at least allows our core to get their strikes in with re-rolls. (since we almost always hit on 4's against other core, while against some specials and rares we need 5's!)
- our general is far too important to have running off by himself. against ogres, it's not as big a problem since they don't have alot of shooting... but it's not really a habbit to get into, because as soon as an empire or dwarf or elf army shows up, that dragon lord is going to die very quickly!!! (and then poof goes the army!)
instead of the general flying off, try just a basic thrall, or maybe trade the dragon for an abyssal terror! a terror with a blood drinker lord on top is pretty survivable, and will still allow pts for a cheaper lord who can be the general and hide safely behind the main lines!
- magic. it's our biggest need, but especially in larger games there's not enough of it to rely on. Thus, it becomes almost mandetory to include things like 'master of the dark arts', the black periapt and lore of death to ensure a single bad roll for the winds doesn't end the game on you.
as for the sun bomb, it's the power scroll that's the problem, since that item is hugely over-powered! (it should be at least a 55-65pts item!) there's no fun watching someone fly up 1st turn, unleash an irresistble 5" template across your battleline and destroy 2/3rd's of your army before you even get a god damn turn!!!
it's the same thing with spells like dwellers below, pit of shades & 13th spell. the fact is they're far too powerful and they character snipe - which is even worse when it happens to us! so yes, IMHO, an opponent does have a right to grumble when they get wiped by a super spell because that's not a game at all, just throwing dice... and there is no real counter to a power scroll - especially for VC's! (as you can tell, my local gaming area is very WAAC's, so I have a special hatred for the power scroll + uber spell combo...)
sorry to rant, but the thing is, VC's are now fairly cookie-cutter in a way because our book has scaled so badly in 8th.
Well its nice to see some feed back, I only used the zombie dragon this time because I just finished painting it. I cant see using it much, only for fun games. I can really see the wisdom of keeping your lord back. As for the spell vampire I dont want to use this that way again; I can see people getting sick of that build fast. This is my fourth game ever and I'm still looking for ways to play the vampire army. We were playing the tower match and well I had the main army taken down however the ogre bulls were holding the tower into the 6th round. I was able to get my vampire's in with the blood knights to clear the tower, it was down to the wire.
For fun this round I dropped the black coach to try Blood Knights with the mounted vampire in the unit. They worked very well this time, so I plan on trying this again, over the black coach.
Thanks for the feedback