2.4k list for Touniment (with additional rule constraints)

[Genoraptor]

Hey guys not played that much Warhammer under the new rules, but I'm competent gamer. any addvice from the network of other VC games would be welcomed. First off there are rule for the torni to take into consideration;

General Restrictions

*Apart from Winds of Magic dice and Challenging an army may only add 2 Power Dice or Dispel Dice to its magic dice pool in each magic phase. Any dice added to the pool, regardless of source (generated, stolen, stored from previous magic phases, generated by magic items/abilities to boost spellcasting before or after the casting attempt, produced by spells, lore abilities, and so on) count. Excess dice are simply discarded and cannot be used in any way (i.e. - they can’t be stored).

If a dice is stolen from the opponent’s pool, but your army has already generated two extra dice, the dice is removed from the opponent’s pool and then discarded. Any additional dice are lost and cannot be used. The controlling player chooses which dice are discarded if there is a need to distinguish.
Night Goblin Mushroom D6 do not count as "power dice" as per their Army book. Dark Elves may only use a max of 6 dice to cast a spell the same as everyone else. This overrides the rule in their book.

* Non warmachine shooting is limited to 90 shots per turn - count the number of shots, not models. So for example Dark Elf Warriors with repeater crossbows count as 2 shots. Ranked (non-skirmisher) infantry with missile weapons with a range of 12" or less are excluded from this restriction. (See note (i) for additional clarification)

* An army may not include more than 2 warmachines of the same type.

* No single non character unit in the army may be over 450 points

* Maximum of three units per army with the “fly” rule.

* The magic item “Fozzrik’s Folding Fortress” may not be taken.

* Special and Named characters may be taken.

* Characters affected by the following spells that would instantly remove it from the table only take one wound if it would normally benefit from a look out sir roll from being part of a unit. The Dwellers Below and Final Transmutation. This does not apply if you are a lone character outside of a unit.

Notes:
(i) Any model with a fixed maximum amount of shots (read: shooting attacks) counts that maximum towards the shot cap (i.e. blowpipes = 2, RXB = 2, lifetaker = 3) but those with a random/variable number (treeman, razordon, Hail of doom arrow, Flamers etc) take the average rounding down, for example Leadbelcher D6 shots, so average is 3 or 4 rounding down to take the 3, if it was D3 shots average would be 2 and so on.
(ii) Excluding any ranked (non-skirmisher) infantry with missile weapons with a range of 12” or less from this as per this rules pack.
(iii) Do not count the possibility of Tomb Kings being able to fire twice against this shot limit. For example a Skeleton bowmen counts as 1 shot, despite the possibly that with magic he could fire twice.

Race Specific Restrictions:

Lizardmen
* Salamanders 0 – 3 models per army.
* Higher State of Consciousness and the Crown of Command may not be taken on the same model.
* Scar Veterans are 0 – 2 models per army.

Vampire Counts
*

Skaven
*Hell Pit Abominations and Warp Lighting Cannons are 0-1 unit selection per army.
* Warlock Engineers are 0 – 3 models per army.

Dark Elves
*The Pendant of Kaleth and the Crown of Command may not be taken on the same model.
* Hydras 0 – 1 unit selections per army.

Empire
*Steam Tanks are 0 – 1 models per army

Warriors of Chaos
* Hell Cannons are 0 – 1 unit selections per army

Daemons of Chaos
* Flamers of Tzeentch 0 – 6 models per army.

Tomb Kings
*No further restrictions
High Elves

*High Elf armies make ignore the “same type” warmachine restriction

Ogres
*No further restrictions

Bretonnians
*No further restrictions

Wood Elves
*No further restrictions

Orcs & Goblins
*No further restrictions

Beastmen
*No further restrictions

Dwarves
*No further restrictions

Chaos Dwarfs (Throne of Tamurkhan book)
* Hell Cannons are 0 – 1 unit selections per army




so know you know the rules here my list;

LORDS

Heinrich Kemmler 350

Heroes

Necromancer
L2, tricksters shard 125

vampire
HA,Ench shield, tails of preserv, fly 189


CORE

40 skellys full command
40 skellys full com
5 dire wolfs
5 dire wolfs
20 zombies 600


Special

30 Grave Guard; full Com, burning banner, 370
30 Grave guard; full com, great weapons 390
2 Spirit host 90
2 Spirit host 90
Corpse cart with bale-fire 105
corpse cart with spear 91



its a very simple plan and I'm not trying getting fancy or tricky with it, solid battle line of two skelly units, two GG units with the carts between them for the ASF bubble and a caster bunker of zombies behind for all buffs, magic will be consistent for both sides with the restrictions to adding dice so there will be less domination from slans etc so a solid line was what i went for. The hosts anchor the flanks/ hold up units/warmachine hunt depending on situation and the 5 dogs units chase down all war machines that are not hell-cannons! The vampire has fly so if needs must he can charge over units to get to the war machines



any advice welcome

[decinator25]

In the great weapon squad banner of the barrows man. Its amazing. Also why do you have the flying vampire?

[Korpacz1]

Soooo many rules and restrictions to level the playing field... and then they allow people to take named lords like Teclis! lol.

1. I'd think about adding master of the dead so you can raise skeletons beyond starting size in turns 1 and 2 as you march forward.
2. I know the corpse cart is sort of pivotal to your battle plan, but 2 seems like a waste. If you hide it centrally behind your lines (it's really not that great in combat anyways) it should be safe enough and still reach 2-3 of your blocks.
3. Tricksters shard seems odd on your caster. I almost always go with a dispel scroll as it can effectively shut down a magic phase. (given the number of rank and file guys you have you might be better of taking 2 or possibly even 3 naked level 1s
4. The flying vampire seems... out of place, if he's there to hunt warmachines you're probably better off with 2-3 more units of dogs at a lower cost. If you're thinking about combat with him, maybe go with 5 hexwraiths to accompany him on the flank.
5. Banner of the barrows is awesome, take it on your greatweapon guard. Screaming banner is also useful and relatively cheap.

[WraithGuardian]

its a very simple plan and I'm not trying getting fancy or tricky with it, solid battle line of two skelly units, two GG units with the carts between them for the ASF bubble and a caster bunker of zombies behind for all buffs, magic will be consistent for both sides with the restrictions to adding dice so there will be less domination from slans etc so a solid line was what i went for. The hosts anchor the flanks/ hold up units/warmachine hunt depending on situation and the 5 dogs units chase down all war machines that are not hell-cannons! The vampire has fly so if needs must he can charge over units to get to the war machines

any advice welcome

I see a bunch of issue here, both with the list and the plan. Starting with the list.

1. The hero vampire just doesnt belong here. The list as a whole is very slow, with no flier or cavalry of any kind. You flying vampire will be standing out in the middle of the battlefield and just begging to get shot to pieces. Odds are he will be the first thing that gets inside the range of enemy guns, and your opponent will probably have a clear idea of what you want to do with him. Now if you are telling yourself "oh I will take my time and move him carefully" - well thats also not going to work because you dont want to be charging those warmachines on turn 4-5 when they already hammered half your army into the ground, the vamp will never get his points worth. I really suggest you go with a wight king, equip him well and just have him march along with your frontline.

2. I like the overall layout of the core section, but you do have to make sureto raise the zombies from the start so they will be able to make a stand despite the loses from shooting. Also, for a slow footslogging list such as this, once you manage to get into CC (after you take massive damage) you need to be able to survive and break hopefully anything that you charge into. You can give yourself a better edge against enemy infantry blocks if you keep the wolves in reserve and use them for flanking large enemy blocks. You are saying you want to charge warmachines with your wolves, but altogether you have a total of 3 units in the whole list who are capable of doing that and these 3 units (vamp and 2 wolf units) will be the first in range of enemy guns and magic missiles, which will make very short work of them. If you want to take down warmachines, you need fast, flying and preferably resilient units like bats, Vargs, ethereals or a ghulf. Rule of thumb, once you enter the range of enemy guns make sure you enter it with at least 75% of your army this way you can better control who gets shot and who doesnt. The way you stand right now, the vampire and the 10 wolves die to guns, magic and arrows in the first 1-2 turns after which you opponent starts hitting the grave guard.

3. Special are solid, although I would strongly suggest giving both GG units great weapons. These are the main units doing the damage out of your whole army, you need to maximize the amount of damage they can do. You could run both carts near the units to hurt the ld of the units they charge into. THis will make it more likely that they break anything they hit preferably in no more than 1-2 turns.

4. The ethereals are fine, but from personal experience Ive noticed they are very succeptible to magic missiles and I found that they work best in units of 3. This way your opponent may actualy fear them and dedicate more effort into wiping them out, leaving your GG alone.

5. Once again I think your strategy needs a little rethinking, your list is not made to take down warmachines early in the game.

[Genoraptor]

1. The hero vampire just doesnt belong here. The list as a whole is very slow, with no flier or cavalry of any kind. You flying vampire will be standing out in the middle of the battlefield and just begging to get shot to pieces. Odds are he will be the first thing that gets inside the range of enemy guns, and your opponent will probably have a clear idea of what you want to do with him. Now if you are telling yourself "oh I will take my time and move him carefully" - well thats also not going to work because you dont want to be charging those warmachines on turn 4-5 when they already hammered half your army into the ground, the vamp will never get his points worth.

3. Special are solid, although I would strongly suggest giving both GG units great weapons. These are the main units doing the damage out of your whole army, you need to maximize the amount of damage they can do. You could run both carts near the units to hurt the ld of the units they charge into. THis will make it more likely that they break anything they hit preferably in no more than 1-2 turns.

4. The ethereals are fine, but from personal experience Ive noticed they are very succeptible to magic missiles and I found that they work best in units of 3. This way your opponent may actualy fear them and dedicate more effort into wiping them out, leaving your GG alone.

thanks for the reply,

from the few games that i have played so far i have found the list very fast to get to cc, vanhells dance has got me there by turn two nearlly every time, however at these points i was running hero mannfred and master necro so effectively had the spell twice almost all the time, maybe an issue with this list. the flying vampire has worked fantastic in some games combined with the early vanhels and a unit of skellys to hide in for the first turn; again needs vanhells first turn, and the firing him off out of the unit on turn two straight to combat as thos cannons etc are nearly always on a hill in plain sight.

From my experience so far, as limited as its been most generals have let me have vanhels (for fear for other spells like me hitting casts of Gaze/making my units bigger) first turn knowing that it will give me asf etc and just not charge me. this gives them a chance to shoot me again/for the first time(depending on who went first) and then in my turn try cut out my casting 2nd turn with the disp scroll then have an equal dice or better to shut me out fully, this is the turn where i use the trickster shard, if they want to stop my buffs in this turn it, could risk the wizard and in the long run give me advantage in magic phase.

the etherals would be in units of three ideally but i didnt have the points but wanted two units.... in hindsight i could just have one unit of three and this frees up 45pts, and make one of my units more effective and nearly all saved points for Banner of barrows.

i would love the idea of two units with great weapons alas i not have the models/ spare £75 to buy them!, and would have to re think my army, but if i did would probs use lots of L1 nercos to spam IoN to rasie up those dead GG as they lack the protection.....! this said i could change the vampire to have lore of beast in stead of fly and use the sig spell for +1s +1T grave guard/skellys!! (but as fun as that would be i think its a lot of points to sink in to the chance casting one spell....but it would be awesome and a massive threat that may well get me other spells off in fear, worth it/not worth it/ what do you think?)

[Genoraptor]

Soooo many rules and restrictions to level the playing field... and then they allow people to take named lords like Teclis! lol.

1. I'd think about adding master of the dead so you can raise skeletons beyond starting size in turns 1 and 2 as you march forward.
2. I know the corpse cart is sort of pivotal to your battle plan, but 2 seems like a waste. If you hide it centrally behind your lines (it's really not that great in combat anyways) it should be safe enough and still reach 2-3 of your blocks.
3. Tricksters shard seems odd on your caster. I almost always go with a dispel scroll as it can effectively shut down a magic phase. (given the number of rank and file guys you have you might be better of taking 2 or possibly even 3 naked level 1s
4. The flying vampire seems... out of place, if he's there to hunt warmachines you're probably better off with 2-3 more units of dogs at a lower cost. If you're thinking about combat with him, maybe go with 5 hexwraiths to accompany him on the flank.
5. Banner of the barrows is awesome, take it on your greatweapon guard. Screaming banner is also useful and relatively cheap.

Kemmler has master the dead! i have found that one cart can be cheap kill, too much stuff has flame (stupid 10pt flame banner!) and then it takes one hit with multi wound shot and your dead if not already dead from the flame shots in one turn, as you said with those cart been pivotal in the plan two is essential. i have found that they are very good in cc, those impact hits have the difference in me drawing a combat to routing units a number of times.

getting an average of 7 dice in the magic phase and i will want to cast at least one other buff spell i think more than 2 characters in a support role with invoc is a waste in points (remember i have a third for back up if needs be anyway in the vampire), and gives the dispelling wizard an easy ride to dispel with the difference in level been so much, so i would have to run a mortis to compensate bla bla etc and this totally changes the list.

im not feeling the love for the flying vamp from anyone but i swear it have worked a treat a fair few times, hide in in a unit first turn vanhells, second turn rocket out the unit and charge war-machines he's their to get the kill points i don't have time to get to with blocks unless im slamming someone and it matters not cuz iv already won, this can be a real difference if he picks up 2/3 warmachines/weapon teams/detachments/small units worth of points and tip the scale to a minor win from a draw or from minor loss to draw.

not a fan of hex wraiths they scream magic missile fire due to the low number of wounds and high points cost and are too hard to repair fast enough to keep them alive... i think they got it wrong with healing certain units vargeists and hexwraiths namely if you got maybe two wounds back from the cast max so if you allocated the lore attribute free wound to them but you cant, its stupid. a blood knight for instance is Xpts and gets all its points back from the cast of invoc the vargeist is nearly the same points and gets X/3 points for the same cast, ye its got three wounds int he first place but the bloodknight has the save maybe even a ward (in unit of 6 knight a ward only 1/4 added to his value) but its got no save what so ever, not even a poxy 6+ regen which imo would even it out he getting one wound back from IoN cuz you have the chance to buff in with a mortis a make it a tiny bit survivable, the crypthorrors get loads of wounds back from IoN have better T and (x)regen save. lol rant over!

im getting the barrows banner in at the loss of a host and putting the units together to make a 3

the shard was explained in other reply but i agree that the scroll is normally much better, ill find out which one ill take in play test testing.

what do you think to the vamp going total support lose fly maybe the ward too and having lore of beasts to use sig spell for +1S&T



all this talk of blood knights is making me want to re write the list....and lord mannfred!!!

thanks for you help i'm thinking about this more/with fresh eyes and a different view point is always helpful.

[Genoraptor]

Alt List

Count Mannfred

L2 necro with cursed book

L1 vampire bsb; mounted, dragon helm,enchanted shield, HA, lance, beguile

Grave Guard X 30 full com

Blood knight X 6 full com and banner of blood keep, warrior bane

cart x 2 one balefire two spears

zombies x20

skellys x40 full com

skellys x 40 full com

dogs x 5

dogs x 5


better or worse?