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Right I've had a chance to have a bit of a look over the new VC and formed a bit of an opinion on most of the units, and tried to make a couple of sample army lists. This is my opinion of how it looks now, see what you guys think. I'll leave out the units that didn't really change much or at all.
Characters: Not really much chop. I haven't looked at the special characters closely, but only one lord level character is rather odd. Vamps have the ability to be very powerful, but they will also get expensive, the trick I think is going to be to not get carried away so you don't end up spending 1000 points on characters then having very little for the rest of your army. VC I think are less dependant on characters now since there are other units with some real killing power. I don't see why anyone would take a Wight King unless the game was less than 2k and they needed the leadership, better to take vamps and necros to get more magic.
Corpse cart: Crap. Useless in combat, and very easy to kill despite having regeneration, the bound spell that it gives is not worth the points of the cart. The balefire upgrade is ok, especially if you had 2 carts with it, but then I think you are spending too many points on that ability anyway. VC are meant to be the magic strong ones, not rooting around with expensive dispel abilities. A pity since the model looks cool.
Ghouls vs skeletons: Wow, Ghouls sure got a bump up. Yes, they probably should have stayed skirmishers, but we're stuck with them in ranks now. Now that they benefit from being undead I really see these guys taking a much stronger role than the skeleton armies as old. They are the same points as a skellie, and provide an impressive 2 poisoned attacks each which is great for a cheap core unit, coupled with t4 they are a no brainer. The lack of standard doesn't really hurt them I don't think. Skeletons may survive a bit longer with their armour, but ghouls will kill more.
Zombies: Disappointed. In all the horror movies, zombies are really slow and stupid but very tough to kill. I think a better stat line would be s1, t4. At t2 they really are going to die very very quickly against anything. Their low cost makes them tempting, but no characters can join them to give support. A unit to raise during the battle, not to buy before the battle.
Dire wolves have taken a hit too, with the loss of their charge bonus. Yes, they're cheaper in points, but its going to be hard to justify them. They are going to get killed very easily even if they charge the flank or rear, swarms will probably do their job better.
Grave guard: These guys are pretty cool with the ability to take great weapons now. Their new models are quite nice as well. I would definitely want them with great weapons all the time, if you are investing more points in shock troops (as opposed to core) then you want them to kill, not be able to take damage and sit in combat. Thats what skeletons are for! A nice unit of GG would be a good addition to most armies.
The black coach is now supped up even more than before, this beast is definitely a game winner in the right circumstances and terrible on the wrong. Remember, it still only takes a single s7 hit to down it. And it no longer gains wounds for kills? That is a bit of a blow for such an expensive chariot. With the nightmares now at s4 to compensate for the weakened mounted great weapon, the black coach is still a fearsome and very good choice IMO.
Blood Knights.... Terrible. They are, like swordmasters, a broken unit. Not overpowered, broken. Against armies who have no shooting and can't compete with your magic, they will wreak absolute havok. Against armies with decent shooting, they are very expensive fire fodder. Plus the models are soooo expensive, I would boycott the unit just for the price GW has put on the models. Don't buy them, if sales are low GW will have to make them a bit cheaper. Their current price is rediculous. Plus frenzy makes them a very easy unit to bait.
Wraiths: What a cool looking unit. I don't see how they drew a price of 50 points though, nearly as much as a blood knight for less strength, less movement, less toughness, less initiative, less attacks (don't discount those s4 nightmare attacks) and less leadership. Ethereal could make them very good though, and to be honest I literally only just noticed they have two wounds each. You would want to guard this expensive unit very closely, a single magic missile is likely to destroy the whole unit and upwards of 200 points worth. I don't think the banshee upgrade is worth it, that'd be like the champion of a swordmaster unit having only 1 attack and a magic bow instead of a great weapon.
Varghulf: Not impressed. With only US 4 it won't be negating ranks, which would make it worthwhile. As it is, just for the kills it provides you are better off spending the points elsewhere. Remember, for only 30 points more you can buy a giant that is far better in almost every respect. If you want a large creature, I'd go for a giant instead of a Varghulf. As I said that US 4 really hurts it.
Overall: The new VC appear like a very powerful army from a distance, but when you look closely and start trying to build a list it gets very difficult for the VC player, much like with HE. Characters are going to cost a huge amount of points, and you pretty much need to spend that, then you are stuck with not a lot trying to juggle points between large blocks of infantry and hard hitting support units. I think it will be a while before the vets get a hold of the VC and learn how to use them really well, in which case they will probably be scary, but it looks like it will take quite a while to find decent lists for them.
Remember that for units like Cairn Wraiths, Grave Guard, Blood Knights and the Varghulf you can restore dead models now using ION or Summon Undead Horde, rather that just healing the wounds on models still in play. So as long as they don't wipe out the entire unit, you can restore any models killed up to the max unit strength they started with (some exceptions apply).
Also I would prefer the Varghulf over a Gaint, it moves faster, has some great special rules and as mentioned above it can be healed.
As an additional note, why has our Zombie Dragon gotten ever crapper.
I've used the vargulf a few times, its definately worth the points when used right and is a very nice model.
there is definitely a lot on there that i disagree with.
-corpse cart: i think the balefire absolutely is worth it. with all of the vampiric powers and weapons, there aren't many points left for dispel scrolls and the like. against magic heavy armies (like i recently went against with my friend's skaven led by a grey seer, and 2 warplock engineers) this thing is a life saver. running just ONE corpse cart, the balefire was able to save me on numerous occassions. now i run 2 in my regular list, and swap between balefire or lodestone depending on who i am playing. and i think the always strikes first bound spell also helps out a lot. if nothing else, it can be a good way to draw out some of the opponent's dispel dice for your ion's / summon undead horde, etc...
-blood knights: i don't know if by broken you mean ungodly powerful, or crappy. i think that they are a friggin' amazing unit. i've used them in both of my games with the new book. the 2nd time i used them, i joined a vampire lord general to the army, equipped with the red fury power, and the dreadlance. let me tell you, 4 auto-hitting strength 7 attacks that give an addition auto-hitting strength 7 attack for each wound dealt is pretty damned powerful. potential 8 s7 auto hitting attacks, and getting 8 isn't too far fetched with s7.
-grave guard: i agree with you here, this is a good unit. they were a great unit in the last edition, and i think they are great here as well.
Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos
Good. Thats the point, get a range of different opinions on units. I'm sure there are points I've overlooked, as I'm sure there are points other people have overlooked.Originally Posted by NellWell, in a 2k army you are likely to be using all character slots with any combination of necros and vampires, right? So you have a level 3 wizard (lord) and 3 level 1 wizards. That gives you 7 dispel dice. That is quite a large amount for a 2k army. And any one of those characters may take a scroll if you like, the vampires may take a scroll on top of 50 points (or 100) of bloodline powers. IMO that is plenty. I'm not saying the abilities of the corpse cart are useless, I'm just saying they cost too much for what they do. Over 70 points for a lvl 3 bound item is crazy.-corpse cart: i think the balefire absolutely is worth it. with all of the vampiric powers and weapons, there aren't many points left for dispel scrolls and the like. against magic heavy armies (like i recently went against with my friend's skaven led by a grey seer, and 2 warplock engineers) this thing is a life saver. running just ONE corpse cart, the balefire was able to save me on numerous occassions. now i run 2 in my regular list, and swap between balefire or lodestone depending on who i am playing. and i think the always strikes first bound spell also helps out a lot. if nothing else, it can be a good way to draw out some of the opponent's dispel dice for your ion's / summon undead horde, etc...I mean both. In any given battle they will either be ungodly powerful or completely crappy, they will never just be average or just worth their points. Against Dwarves or Empire, cannons will smash them in a turn, against ogres and chaos, they will munch through half an army with ease. And you do have to agree that they cost way too much money, right?-blood knights: i don't know if by broken you mean ungodly powerful, or crappyI didn't mention mounts, but I actually thought the zombie dragon had got better. Less points and it now has double the old WS (which is great), slightly higher initiative and an extra attack. I would probably consider taking one now in very large battles. However, the reduced toughness does indeed suck and makes it that much easier to kill.As an additional note, why has our Zombie Dragon gotten ever crapper
I actually did some comparisons with the new zombie dragon and the HE ones. The new zombie dragon can completely smash through sun dragons easily, they match up evenly with a moon dragon (they lose only due to lower I), and they can take out around half of the wounds of a star dragon. The increased weapon skill combined with their abilities make them quite powerful, despite being pretty much unarmoured. If only it counted as infantry for IoN....
40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
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