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I am primarily a WH40k player with Chaos as my main army.
The Chaos Space Marines are exactly how I picture the forces of Chaos to be:
Tough, strong and all but impossible to break and rout.
Unfortunately, when I look at my Horde of fantasy models I am not met with the same chaotic splendour. Warriors of Chaos being routed by Orcs? Knights of Chaos, broken and defeated by a bunch of Skeletons? A mighty Lord of Chaos, turning tail and fleeing from a unit of peasants? Really?!
I know that the two game systems have certain differences between their chaotic armies. The Warhammer Fantasy Chaos more represents a sort of viking force, not-too superhuman warriors raiding forth from the north, pillaging and plundering all in their path. The Chaos Space Marines on the other hand are genetically enhanced super-warriors, made all the more vicious by the powers of the Warp. But still, I hate the way I see the Chaos forces in Fantasy.
So I was thinking, with the new release of the Vampire Counts (an army I've always admired), perhaps I could use my army of Chaos as an army of the Vampire Counts!
The new Warriors of Chaos models makes for some prime Grave Guards while the Knights of Chaos would be the Black Knights.
I have a smattering of the old, hunch-backed Warriors of Chaos that could serve as Skeletons. I could use some regular Zombie models to represents victims of everyones' favourite plague, Nurgle's Rot, brought back by the evil powers of Chaos. With some converting, my Chaos Chariots could serve as Corpse Carts!
These are just a few of my ideas, but you should have gotten some form of picture by now.
Now, I can hear that you're wondering how I would go about representing the whole Invocation of Nehekhara thing. I was thinking that the Sorceror would merely be summoning yet more followers of Chaos to fight for his cause (or making the Skeletons/Marauders simply stand back up, showing their immense combat prowess by standing up after they were supposed to be dead), while raising Zombies would be straight-forward, since they're actual Zombies.
They would be fear-causing due to being heralds of Chaos. Everyone fears Chaos.
Another prime point would be that my "Warriors of Chaos" (Grave Guard) will actually be worthwile in comparison to their original Hordes of Chaos entry.
The Lord of Chaos (Vampire Count and/or Vampire Lord) will increase in combat prowess while gaining some magical abilities (without costing an immense amount of points, as a Tzeentchian character would)
Anyway, I'm starting to ramble on without adding much to my post.
In summary, I wish to use my Chaos models (along with their original Chaos fluff) whilst using the rules for Vampire Counts. With suitable conversions where they would fit.
And I will of course let my opponent know exactly what is going on before the battle starts.
What do you guys think?
Well me and Von Smallhousen took a Chaos themed undead army to the doubles tournament a few years back.
Used deamons as spirit hosts and Chaos Warriors as Grave Guard (With Crom as a Wight Lord).
The only thing to note is to make sure you can fit them on the right bases. Grave Guard are on a standard base while Chaos Warriors are on the slightly larger base, we had to fit chaos warriors on the smaller bases, which we managed using regiment bases. Made for some tricky model positioning, but it payed off as since they were so packed in it looked like a solid wall of armour.
2000AD's answer to all "How do VC deal with ..." questions: Forbidden Lore + 2 Power Stones.
Further answers will require more vodka.
Sounds like a good idea in friendly games.
Make sure that you can speciically tell what chaos model represents, with proper conversions.
You're making Hordes of Chaos out to be rubbish Orc boys killing chaos knights?Where have you got that from? 5 chosen chaos knights can beat 30 orc boys in combat. The knights would only have to kill more than 3 (orcs rank bonus) to win the combat. Orcs boys are strength 3 so it would be 5's to wound, then the knights would get a 2+ save, probably wouldn't kill any.
But anyway if you're doing this, make sure you really want to but if you're not going to use the old models you've got then theres nothing to loose i guess.
I agree with DD. Hordes of Chaos are a pretty mean army in Fantasy. You're going from the army with arguably the best core trooper in the game to the one with the absolute worst pile of rubbish cannonfodder staffing the front line? Doesn't seem like a way to approximate the 'elite' feel of 40K Chaos =)
It should be fine for anything but tournaments and playing in a GW store, but I think you've shortchanged hordes of chaos!
Thank you all for your input, good to hear an overall positive tone for my thoughts.
I've been using Hordes of Chaos for a few years and have enjoyed some moderate success with them but, since they're Chaos and all, I've been sticking to 'em and trying to get them working instead of switching to something else. But on the whole I am a bit mispleased with these so-called "elite close combat units". All it takes is a single round of bad dice rolling and they run a huge risk of being destroyed.
12 Warriors of Chaos with great weapons launch an assault against a bunch of 16 Orc Boyz. With a flurry of ones and twos the mighty Warriors manage to fell a single Boy whilst the Orcs deal nothing in return. With a narrow defeat by combat resolution the Warriors of Chaos decides to risk the wrath of their Gods' in the face of the apparently overwhelming Orcs and proceed to be run down.
A whittled down unit of 4 Chosen Knights of Chaos Undivided barrell into a unit of 25 Skeleton Warriors. Four Skeletons fall to the awesome might of the Chosen. Counting up the combat resolution, the Knights start out at +4. They suffer -1 for being outnumbered, another -1 for facing an enemy banner and yet another -3 for the enemy's ranks. Whoop-de-doo, since they lost by a single point and the Skeletons outnumber them, they are forced to fail their break test. I could almost hear the valiant speech of the Chosen Knights' leader.
*My fellow warriors, together we have wandered the Chaos Wastes and fought against all kinds of terrible beasts and ravenous monsters, together have we triumphed in the face of insurmountable odds and proven our worth to the Gods, but these Skeleton Warriors who completely lack any kind of martial prowess are so horrifyingly scary that our personal ambitions for glory and power, the wrath of our onlooking Gods', are truly nothing in comparison. Hoof it, lads!*
These two scenarios are not isolated incidents although these two in particular rank in near the top of the Hall of Shame for my Chaos forces.
And yes, I know that the two examples above are mostly the results of poor dice rolling. That is my own harsh reality. Dices hate me when I need them.
I'm not complaining on the Hordes of Chaos army as a whole, it's just that it doesn't go
along with what I am looking for in an army of Chaos.
I'd rather have my Warriors and Knights being dragged down despite their bitter determination to keep on fighting (crumbling from losing a close combat) than to have them run in their no-doubt pathetic fashion. Bums!
And that's the end of my sort-of venting I suppose, heheh.
Anyway, thank you again for your input! ;Y
Hey the conversion ideas sound like they could work. Although keep in mind that you might be spending a little more because chaos boxes don't provide that many troops in them, then again if you have most of the stuff you need then it should work fine. And its a pretty nice idea as a lot of the units could easily fit into the profile. eg warriors as graveguard, marauders as zombies/ skeletons
Though my only suggestion is that you might be better off trying the hordes of chaos out again. Just judging from your few comments I would say that the same thing will happen with the vampire counts if you use them in the same way as the chaos units in those examples.
Let me explain:
The chaos knights are probably some of the best in the game, but if I charged 4 of them into the front of 25 skeletons I would expect them to lose. Without a flank charge 4 knights without a standard (I assume from the combat tally that they didn't have one?) will almost always lose. You were working at negative 5 combat res before you even started. That means you had to kill with 5 from the 8/9 attacks you were making.
Any unit of knights would lose with those odds. Try some black knights and you'll find out what I mean. But they won't escape, they'll just crumble. Especially without character support, cavalry will rarely break a unit head on.
And the lord charging peasants? Chaos lords are combat beasts, similar to vampires. But no character should be expected to take on a unit on their own. Without support, static combat resolution will break them down.
Anyway all I'm saying is that while vampire counts will not flee, they will crumble quickly if they begin to lose combat. Vampire units placed in the same situation as those chaos troops will still lose. They may lose slower due to not fleeing, but once the combat goes against you then it is an uphill battle with magic to keep the unit going.
See what you think but the Vampire counts are not likely to solve your problems as an elite army. However if you just like the sound of how they play, then I reckon its a great idea and go for the conversions.
Viewsmaster, I do indeed have about all the models I'd need to start it all off as a Vampire Counts army already.
And, on my little rant about the Hordes of Chaos up there... I didn't mean to really bash those units due to their killing performance. I know that 4 Knights SHOULD lose to a fully ranked infantry unit. And for the record, that particular charge was a last-ditch effort at doing something useful in the game since I was being pretty much destroyed. Same with the Chaos Lord charging a bunch of Peasants. If he had managed to rout them the game would have been a draw instead of the defeat it became.
The thing I am on about is that I don't like the fact that Warriors and Knights of Chaos can actually run from such situations! They are hardened warriors of the north that have prevailed in the face of incredible odds in order to attain their position, why do they run at the first possible setback? Argh!
I'm usually tactically sound enough to pull off some fancy manouvers every now and then but I just hate the image I've gotten from the Hordes of Chaos. Warriors of Chaos refusing to charge a unit of Skeleton Warriors due to failing their psychology tests? Cowards!
So I'm not looking at the Vampire Counts to 'solve my problems' in a performance-sense. I'm just getting fed up by my Hordes of Chaos that I want to change them for something else. Ruleswise, that is. I love the models and the fluff.
I probably should have cleared this up in my opening post. Sorry.
Yeah fair enough. The warriors probably aren't the best part of the chaos army. And I remember having similar problems with them losing due to the cost of getting a decent unit of them.
But I figured that there might have been some mitigating circumstances with the knights and lord charging, I did just want to check that you didn't expect the knights to win on a frontal charge though!
If you have the models for this conversion job then it all seems to be shaping up well so good luck with it. And post up some pictures to let us all know how it turns out
Last edited by Viewmaster; March 17th, 2008 at 10:38.
or you could wait until november for the new hordes of chaos army book to come out and stick to chaos :rofl