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How would we kill greater daemons without tooling up something especially to kill them, just using our normal lists?
Theres frostblade but how many people would use that in a competative list? and against a slaanesh greater daemon the vampire would be dead before he attacked.
Forbidden Lore opens up a whole load of possibilities, mainly the Lore of Light. Suddenly all your Vampires go from lvl 1 caster who can raise to level 1 caster who can raise and have a cheap D6 S6 hits magic missle.
Other options include Pit of Shades (I of a Great Unclean One can't be that good can it?), Steal Soul (not hit, no roll to wound, target just takes a wound) or Dazzling Brightness (GD is a lot less effective when it needs 5s to hit instead of 3s)
Banshees can now effect everything so a lucky roll can do some nasty damage.
The old option is just to tarpit him with some zombies or something.
2000AD's answer to all "How do VC deal with ..." questions: Forbidden Lore + 2 Power Stones.
Further answers will require more vodka.
I haven't played against one but I'd use my grave gaurd with greatweapons, there isnt much they cant crack. They will be able to do some wounds, have a good static CR so the deamon would be dead fairly soon. The bound spell that does 2d6 st5 hits could come in handy and I wouldn't call it tailoring because it's a useful item against a lot of things.
BEN DIESEL FTW!!!
dancing ghouls, or hatred ghouls, re-role to hit poison is just what the doctor ordered.
also the fan favorite fire or beast vamp could give it a run.
a charge from a late game black coach would put a nasty a dent in one. early game for lord of change.
hand of dust while not as reliable would still scare the pants of a few of the grater daemons.
we have lots of ways to deal with threats of this type
Chances are if they are using the Greater Daemon offencesively our best bet is trap it in combat with Zombies or basic Skeletons.
No Vampire build will reliably wipe out combat focused Greater Daemons so putting them near one is a mistake. At 550 points (everyone gives them gifts) it is well worth the couple of IoNs a turn to keep it out of combat with anything we care about.
When you finally decide you want to kill it:
> Blood Knights
> VHD on Ghouls
are about the most reliable way of doing it, or very high combat res (although with a Bloodthirster being able to generate 6 kills pretty reliably this aint easy).
Never looked at a Demon Codex before and had my first game against them. My opponent had a Greater Demon of Change, Mask and Nicodemus.
We setup our battle lines, 4 pieces of terrain on a 55"x55" table.
Undead, Turn 1: I got first turn moved up to use the terrain to protect my flanks, cast IoN. Vargulf and Grave Gaurd take a flank. Skeletons, Ghouls, Zombies Take center. Blood Knights able to go centre or Right Flank.
Demon, Turn 1: Demon of Change and Mask march right past by left flank(just enough room for them to fit) They are now behind some and beside the rest of my units! His other units move up.
Undead Turn 2: I continue to position but have to decide what to send at the Greater Demon my choices were grave guard or blood knights. Its big and ugly so I choose my Blood knights with Vampire hero. Executing a 180 turn and moving a little I proceeded to cast Van Hel's Dance to get the knights into combat...
This is where it gets ugly for me. The demon challenges me so I have to accept, the demon has always strike first I10 so promptly kills a blood knight and wins combat res, I lose another knight.
On his turn Mask charges the blood knights and issues a challenge killing another knight, greater demon kills remaining knight leaving only my Vampire hero. My vampire hero manages 2 wounds with a blood drinker but these were promptly Ward saved. My vamp loses to comabt res.
Demons next turn his Greater Demon and mask get flank and rear charges on a unit of ghouls. This battle lasts the rest of the game, my ghouls managed to get some wounds in but his soul drinking erased any damage I would deal. My ghouls eventual die by turn 6.
Lesson learned, Blood Knights vs single models that can challenge and win is not the battle they should be fighting. My knights were totally neutered.
Core Troops are excellent tarpits, but as undead I already new this, just have not used it as much as I should.
From what you say that wasn't a Daemon of Change (Lord of Change: Tzeentch) that you were facing, it was a Keeper of Secrets (Slaanesh) and yes, it was a very bad idea to charge your uber unit against a Daemon with ASF and I10.
The keeper build you describe is actually fairly weak and expensive. More common to see the build that forces you to take two or three leadership tests just to attack the Keeper. For VC you should always tarpit with Zombies or try to poison it to death with ghouls. Those are the best and easiest things to do.
Keeper of Secrets vs 30 Zombies = 600 points of smackdown vs 0pts of throwaway trash.
The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
This is all going to depend of the GD you are facing, they are all quite different.
Tarpitting can only work well against a GUO reliably. Maybe against the KoS, but he still has M10. Bloodthirster and LoC have Fly as well, and I'd be damned if I'd park him right next to a unit of Zombies. He's going for the General straight away, So good luck if you can stop him.
2000AD has some good ideas about magic. FYI, the I of a GUO is 4, so 1/3 chance to kill it...not that at all. nThe others are 6 or more. Lore of Light may seem like a good idea, but if the enemy takes the Great Standard of Sundering, you're in for a lot of trouble. Now, all spells from the Lore of Light misscast on double 1's, 2's or 3's AND a lore of choice recieves -2 to cast.. So, Lore of Light becomes very risky, and if choosing the Vampire lore as the -2 to cast, IoN becomes a lot harder to spam, heck, it could evem fail on 2 dice.....you choose after deployment, too, so you knw what spells the enemy has.
Best answer I have is an equaly large threat - Vampire lord. Red Fury, Infinite Hatred and Sword of Might should do a number, then back him up with a Ward Save and a Zombie Dragon's CLoud of Flies. But against a BT, who will probably have Killing Blow re-rolling all missed hits, can be a bad idea.....
Ill have to work on this one
My main worries are against Blood Thirster and Keeper of secrets.
I was watching a game today and grimgor in a unit of black orcs charge a keep of secrets. Grimgor did 6 wounds on the Keeper of Secrets but passed 5 ward saves! Then the keeper of secrets did 4 wounds, Grimgor failed all his wards, disguisting. I was really hoping for Grimgor to kill that daemon!
I wouldn't send my blood knights against either. At the moment with the list i have the best i could do is to hope to get my unit of 30 ghouls (keep IoNing) in and try and do a wound or 2 with a vargulf, its possible.
I use my 30 ghoul unit on a lot of things, just to tie them down while the rest of my army, the quick stuff just kills everything. Worked a treat today against a dwarf lord and his large unit of Iron breakers. I managed to tie them down for the whole game while my fell bats and varghulf (also killing a ranger unit with hero) destroyed all the warmachines and my calvary smashed the rest.
I've decided a large unit of ghouls are the best choice to fight a daemon as you can use ghoulkin to get you nearer. Then you have a lot of attacks that can poisen, may do a wound, or two and the daemon will have to kill 5 to win combat, not that it matters.
general with carnstein ring in HUGE unit!!! Deamon kill your general which revive in another unit and deamon stay the rest of game slaying pathetic skeletons or ghouls