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So i watched a game the other day where a DE all calvary army just DESTROYED a VC army that had previously been nearly unstopable at our store... from the best of my knowledge the lists were something like this
LV 4 vamp lord, +2 power die, lord of dead, flayed haubruck
Manfred accolyte with book of arkron
Wight lord with drakenhoff banner
LV1 vamp with lord of dead and lots of CC
Corpse Cart w/loadstone
10 dire wolves
4 fell bats
2 units of 15 skellies
20 grave guard with war banner (has general and wight)
4 units of 5 dark riders with Repeater xbws
5 Cold one knights
3 cold one charriots
2 reaper bolthrowers
2 sorceresses (2 powerstones, dispel scrole, +1 power dice)
1 high sorceress on dark pegasus (2 power stones, dispel scroll)
The DE player used TONs of magic to shut down the DE magic phase with beguile and then shot everyone to death with xbows, he just ran circles around the majority of the VC army and then at the end of the game he carshed home with all the cold ones and crumbled the Grave guard
So basically here is my question and the one i was debating with the VC player after the game, how would you change his list to give him a better shot at winning? I suggested a vampire with the fly special rule and maybe hand of death and then just hide in a skellies unit and then charge out when the dark riders get close and just jump around killing them, also we thought about more wolves acting as a screen or maybe some etherial units? (he normally uses winds of undeath to get them but was so shut down he coudlnt) also some dispel scrolls obviously....
He doesnt want to change his army TOO much, as it has worked REALLy well (900 points in the grave guard unit makes it almost impossible to crack) but he does want to be more competitive against the new DE player...ideas?
Part of the problem is the DE army was a tad more mobile than the VC I would certainly not bother with a Vampire Lord, a hero would probably be better, swapping the Wight Lord to a Vampire will also make it have a total of 6 Vampires.
The army seems to be two distinct bits - the fast parts (Black Coach, Varghulf, Drire Wolves, Fell Bats) and the slow stuff.
Unfortunately the quick stuff isn't hard enough to punch a line through this particualr build-out of the DE army (2+ saves on the COK, and massive charge range and multiple shots from the Dark Riders).
One idea would be to have a Vampire with Ghoulkin and take a unit of Ghouls in support (maybe dropping the Lord to a Vampire would allow this) and then hitting a vulnerable enemy unit with the Ghoul character in potentially turn 1 or turn 2.
Use some spirit hosts to block then, then bottle neck his army in the terrain, then use your combat units to flank him, also get some more magic in the army maybe find a way to get another vampire Lv 2.
The demonic scum of chaos fear us!The fear the holy fire of our stormbolters!They fear the sweet kiss of our blades!But most of all they fear ourdevotion to the Emperor!
How big of a list is this points wise? This almost looks like 2250 or 3000 pts.
i believe it was 2250,
how big of a bat unit do you think one would need to get through a round of dark rider shooting?
He went up against a list that wasn't as vunerable to his unit of doom and either fluffed dice or didn't adapt.
I'd say he's better working with what he has got, his army is slow and magic reliant, the Dark Elf list is fast and fragile. Any change he makes will move his army away from it's strength.
The list he has is capable of beating that Dark Elf list, if he controls threats and pressures his opponents dispels in turns 1 & 2. By the end of turn 5 he should have magical control even with few kills, and then can play for a couple of big unit kills and table dominance.
He already has 11PD and 2 Bounds, as well as 6 Dispel. That Dark Elf list shouldn't be able to stop his magic, running with what 6DD and 2 Scrolls? The Dark Elf reliance on Power Stones allows a couple of phases of powerful magic, which at 80 points they should.
Everyone was mounted, and i believe it was a high sorceress on a dark pegasus?
I never read his list, I just am guessing based on what i saw on the table
also im pretty sure that dark riders are core for dark elves....in which case hed have 30% of his army in them....even though it wasnt a tourney and only a friendly game
Wacky Idea Number 1:
They have lots of small units. Take as many vampires as possible (lord optional but would be nice) and each takes 2 power stones and Forbidden Lore, all choosing Lore of Vampires. For the first 2 turns your priority is to get as many Wind of Undeath's off.
Lots of small units means that just 2 success's in a phase will lead to a few panic checks and the created spirit hosts can be used to screen and tarpit.
Variations of wacky plan 1:
Lore of Fire - blast them with lots of magic missles
Lore of Beasts - Beast cowers to restrict their mobility (might not be worth it)
Lore of Heavens - Magic missles and Celestrial shield
Lore of Death - if you can get close enough Drain life would reak havoc and steal soul for assainating the sorceresses.
EDIT: In hindsight Lore of Fire is probably the more reliable option. Wind of death has potential and creates spirit hosts, but a Fiery Blast (2D6 S4 hits) stands a good chance of crippling or outright destryoying a unit of dark riders. Hero vamps use a power stone for 2 turns to get fiery blast off then switch to fireball for the rest of the game (or raising), Lord can keep on going with his extra dice. First turn is probably going to be limited by the scrolls, but the second should see some Kentucky Fried Elf.
If you have faith in your dice (or just want to gamble) then there's the potential for each hero vampire to be throwing out a fiery blast and a fireball for 2 turns.
Last edited by 2000AD; June 14th, 2008 at 00:13. Reason: hindsight
2000AD's answer to all "How do VC deal with ..." questions: Forbidden Lore + 2 Power Stones.
Further answers will require more vodka.