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  1. #1
    Son of LO strewart's Avatar
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    139 (x8)

    Having trouble beating VC

    So I haven't managed to win against the new VC yet. They really are a tough army, the ability to throw out so many invocations in each turn is just crazy. My first few games I got massacred, but the last one was my best result so far, and with High Elves. I destroyed much of his army and took 2 table quarters and contested the other two, but he still came out just ahead.

    My main problem is stopping the unit of Grave Guard. There are 20 grave guard with full command and HW/S with the general (vamp lord) who is level 3, has the ability for 2 extra power dice per turn, ghoul kin to raise ghouls on a 3+ (the only core blocks in the army are ghouls) and the sword that raises a model with every kill. And of course crown of the damned. It seems no matter what I throw at this unit, I cannot destroy it, and it is definitely the key to beating the army. Ghouls are a very tough unit, especially when they are getting raised so easily, but nowhere near as bad as these GG. If I kill them, the majority of his magic goes, his army starts crumbling, its probably 6-800 VP and game over. If I ignore them, by the end of the game I can destroy most of his other stuff but have absolutely nothing that can scratch the GG and suffer quite a few losses so still lose.

    I tried using empire with a detachment, full unit of swordsmen plus character and 10 free company with 2 hand weapons charging the flank. I actually won the first round of combat, and caused a few to crumble, but then the 7 power dice just spammed invocation and took the GG back to full strength. D6 raising for GG is too much, it should be d3 like with TK. Anyway, my unit could just win combat, but then they got raised, until I had lost enough models forhim to start winning, then my stuff fled.

    Last battle, I had a star dragon lord and a noble on an eagle trying to assassinate the vamp lord, didn't work. I had a unit of swordmasters hit the front while dragon princes hit the flank, didn't work. Nothing I throw at the unit can destroy it, because if even one model survives he can just raise them to full strength in his turn anyway.

    Any ideas on how to beat this unit? Its not even the toughest combo for a GG/lord unit.

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  3. #2
    Member mechgumbi's Avatar
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    I hate helping a HE player beat a VC player, but if you hit him with swordmasters and dragon princes in the flank, then issue a challenge with the dragon princes. If he accepts with the general, then hope for the best possible rolls. If he accepts with the GG Champ, then you should get some extra combat res and you should be able to focus 2-3 Swordmaster's attacks on the general, yet again hoping for good rolls.

    It seems that his general is not well protected by armor, so the charging HE should be able to kill him before he gets to strike back. Also if you are forcing him to use all of his power dice to Nehek one unit, you should be able to dismantle the rest of his army. You can also take spells which pick out characters or use your ranged combat pepper his troops, especially the ghouls. Pick one unit of ghouls each round and kill them all with ranged combat, if you can.

  4. #3
    Organised Chaos saltrock36's Avatar
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    not much use to you but if you want to be a b*****d take an archmage with nullstone and get him in close whilst having hard as nails hero characters and units quickly doing the damage. just be aware that your magic items dont work near it either.

    or take teclis and cheese it up, possibley pit of shades on his GG. failing that high magic and vauls unmaking should do away with any magic items the unit or lord is carrying that casue you bother. teclis, a lvl 1 scroll caddy, unit of dragon princes with noble bsb in it (iv seen this done with 9 DPs and the banner of plus d6 combat res, nasty), just make sure to take out pesky magic items first. should be enough to see off the grave guard unit.

    as for the ghouls, spearmen possibly. cheap and very underrated in the high elf army lists. take 15-18 in three ranks and dont bother with command. use them to hold units and possibly use them in conjunction with flanking lion charriots if you can get them. even on the charge your getting 10-12 attacks hitting on 3s against ghouls and 15-18 if charged. you strike first so your opponent is only going to get maybe 2 guys hitting back if he's lucky, in which case you win combat. still a lion chariot would help in crushing those units as long as you use them together, dont go thinking a lion chariot can win combat by itself.
    Last edited by saltrock36; July 9th, 2008 at 20:03.

  5. #4
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    It's hard to answer without knowing the full extent of the rest of his army. And importantly, does he have a BSB in the unit with the drakenhoff banner? If he does, leave it alone. Just ignore that and kill everything else, there's no way to kill a GG unit with a vamp lord + drak BSB barring throwing 1200 points at it.


    If he doesn't have the drak banner, you can try to kill it with your elites, but it has to be very front-loaded. I don't understand how swordmasters plus dragonprinces in the flank didn't do tremendous damage to it. Ignore the vamp lord if he's casting based (ie, doesn't have red fury) - he won't kill enough to win the combat on his own, and he's hard enough where you won't get as many wounds against him [especially with his ward save] as you would attacking the unit. Try to kill him by destroying the grave guard.

    For example, a unit of ~10 swordmasters and 5 dragon princes hitting the flank. You have 11 SM attacks, directing 1-2 at the unit champ. You hit on 3's and wound on 3's, him getting a 5+ save. So ~7 hit, ~4.66 wound, kill ~3. Dragon princes get 11 attacks, too, yeah? Hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's with a 6+ save. So hit ~7, wound ~4.66, kill 4. He'll should have only his vamp to attack back (you killed the entire side rank with princes, and the remaining 3 from the front - the 4th spot being the vamp). Maybe his unit champ, too.

    Vamp swings with 4 attacks and will probably kill 2-3, bringing back 2-3.

    So your combat res is 7 kills, flank, rank, banner, mass - 11. His is, say, 3 + banner - 4. You kill another 7. He's now down to ~9 GG left, assuming average rolling. You still swing first next round, too.

    Now he'll try to IoN that thing back to full, but needing a 4+ is not reliable. He'll probably have, what, 9 or so dice? Save a scroll or two to shut down his magic phase completely for that turn if you need to. If you can stop that one phase, you should wipe him out on your next turn.

  6. #5
    Son of LO strewart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechgumbi
    I hate helping a HE player beat a VC player
    Think of it like this, I also play VC so I will need to know the weaknesses for when my friends start saying they are overpowered, which will happen. Even this opponent (who plays VC) says they are overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by moob
    It's hard to answer without knowing the full extent of the rest of his army. And importantly, does he have a BSB in the unit with the drakenhoff banner? If he does, leave it alone. Just ignore that and kill everything else, there's no way to kill a GG unit with a vamp lord + drak BSB barring throwing 1200 points at it.
    I described everything in the GG unit, no bsb. Vamp with extra power dice, 4+ ward, sword to heal GG, ghoulkin and 20 GG. The rest of the army is 3 units of ghouls, a necro on corpse cart, 2 other carts, another necro, a varghulf and cairn wraiths. It doesn't even look that powerful on paper, but its proven hard to beat. And spearmen just bounce off ghoul units, they need 5's to wound so only kill one or two, if they manage to win the first round by a little bit the unit gets healed straight away, then they lose and are beaten and outnumbered. Two elite units can take down a ghoul unit reliably.

    Quote Originally Posted by moob
    Now he'll try to IoN that thing back to full, but needing a 4+ is not reliable. He'll probably have, what, 9 or so dice? Save a scroll or two to shut down his magic phase completely for that turn if you need to. If you can stop that one phase, you should wipe him out on your next turn
    Well my HE armies are generally magic light since I don't really like wasting points on expensive magic, so shutting down a phase isn't really an option. I rely on killing the enemy mages quickly, which is fine against most armies. Just not when the majority of the power dice come from a t5 4+ ward healing vampire. I suppose just to prove that they are beatable I will try a magic heavy list, I've been experimenting a lot with HE lately and magic heavy is one I have yet to try.

    The null stone is a good idea, but will leave the archmage in a dangerous position. Perhaps if I tried the vortex shard? If I can completely end one magic phase just after I have hit the GG hard then I should be able to finish them. I'll mess around with lists, but I didn't really want to have to take a specific list tooled up to kill VC.
    Last edited by strewart; July 10th, 2008 at 05:20.
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  7. #6
    Member CountTheff's Avatar
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    If you play vampire counts and want to know how to beat them wouldnt you have a good idea from playing the army? If you are using High elf you should be able to shut down a good amount of those spells, and come in with some swordmasters and such.
    Last edited by CountTheff; July 10th, 2008 at 05:27.
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  8. #7
    Son of LO strewart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountTheff View Post
    If you play vampire counts and want to know how to beat them wouldnt you have a good idea from playing the army?
    Normally yes, but I have never seen the new VC beaten.. Closest I have got is a minor loss to them. And that was after I was in a commanding position and looking very good half way through the game. They just raise soo much.

    If you are using High elf you should be able to shut down a good amount of those spells, and come in with some swordmasters and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Well my HE armies are generally magic light since I don't really like wasting points on expensive magic
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  9. #8
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    If you want to see them lose, go up against a tooled out khorne daemon army, heh. Bloodthirsters are rough.

  10. #9
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    Sounds like you need to pick out the vampire to me.....

    The build of vampire lord is not that bad, considering the other options available, you're best bet is phoenix guard to the front, and swordmasters to the flank in order to defeat the unit.
    A pair of lion chariots would make quite a large hole too.

    Putting swordmasters to the front is another option, give your champion the talisman of loec and stick it all on the vampire!

    I think the vampire is the key - a high elf lord with star lance talisman of loec should more or less do for him on the charge, but you need to stop the challenge so put him in a unit of dragon princes with the immune to fear banner.
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  11. #10
    Son of LO strewart's Avatar
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    Swordmasters to the flank sounds great, but my opponent is quite skilled and will most likely try to stop me doing that, given swordmasters are only M5. My only real reliable flankers are dragon princes since they are much faster, but then I need other units to distract the ghouls on either side of the GG so they don't get in the way or countercharge my dragon princes.. Maybe I should take multiple small units of swordmasters to attack the ghouls and try to kill a bunch of them.
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