Welcome to Librarium Online!
I tried out my first game with VCs yesterday, proxying 1500 points against my friends Wood Elves. I used:
1 Vampire on Nightmare with Red Fury and the Flayed Hauberk
1 Vampire with Dark Acolyte, Tomb Blade, the Flayed Hauberk
1 Vampire with Forbidden Lore, Rod of Flaming Death
2 units of 20 Skeletons with spears and full command
10 Dire Wolves
1 Corpse Cart
9 Black Knights with full command and Royal Standard of Strigos
He had 2 units of 20 Dryads, 1 Branchwraith, 10 Wild Riders, 2 units of 10 Glade Guard and an Alter Kindred Noble. The game started out well enough, with my Black Knights and one Vampire scything along his left flank and charging one group of Dryads. I managed to kill about ten but I lost two Black Knights in the process. The rest of my army marched forward across the middle of the board. The rest of the game was a massacre; my Ghouls and Dire Wolves were shot to pieces before they got to see combat and his Wild Riders flank-charged my one Skeleton unit, wiped them out and then overran into the next one! I tried using Invocation of Nehek to help res some of my units but every time he dispelled it with ease. Also, the fact that 3/4 of his army was immune to psychology didn't help... I'm playing him again on Saturday, does anyone have any pointers?
First off you have 2 Flayed Hauberks which is illegal.
in just numbers 73 undead vs 71 wood elves means he equals you with generally more superior troops...
Vampire 1 - Does not fit very well with black knights. His nightmare means you lose the bonus of the Black Knights ethereal movement and his equipment/powers does not help the knights very much. I would have made him with "Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred or Walking death, Blood Drinker" the blood drinker will let you raise your black knights up easily, Dread knight gets you your armour save. Infinite hatred for more damage or walking death for better CR.
Vampire 2 - I like him and have used him myself before he works great in a skeleton unit, though I prefer units of 24 skeletons.
Vampire 3 - he's ok but as a lvl 1 wizard can't take advantage of Forbidden lore very easily. I think it would have been better to go with another Dark Acolyte and a Summon ghouls. Rod of Flaming death is a great way to deal extra damage or suck up extra dispel dice when you want to get off another spell.
Corpse cart was it equipped with Balefire or Loadstone? if neither you should not use it. First strike on a unit of skeletons is not worth much. Ghouls are better, Grave guard are best.
20 skeletons are not very big but the game was only 1500 so its probably acceptable. (protect their flank the only thing skeletons have going for them is CR)
10 ghouls is pretty small (which is why they got shot up)go at least 14 with a vampire with Summon ghouls.
9 Black Knights are pretty expensive for just an extra rank that is lost when you get 1 casualty. This is your biggest point sink and I think you would be better off with 1 group of 5 with a dread knight vampire with blood drinker. If you can upgrade the standard to Banner of the Barrows its better but Strigos is ok.
Direwolves suck. its sucks that they suck but not much we can do about it. use them in 2 groups of 5 to try and get supporting flank charges. As long as you can get 3 of them on a units flank you can negate their ranks for a turn giving you a huge bonus.
In recap here is an army list you can try that does not alter the models you use a whole lot. if you need more ghouls see if you can pick some up or proxy the back ranks.
Vampire 1 with Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred and the Blood Drinker
Vampire 2 with Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead, Tomb Blade, the Flayed Hauberk
Vampire 3 with Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Rod of Flaming Death
1 unit of 20 Skeletons with Spears and Full Command and Banner of Hellfire(magic attacks negate his ward save)
1 unit of 20 Skeletons with Spears and Full Command
19 Ghouls with Crypt Ghast
2 units of 5 Dire Wolves
1 Corpse Cart with Loadstone
5 Black Knights w/ Barding and Full Command
Should be 1500 points on the nose.
Use the Flaming Rod and any Magic missiles you have on his Glade Riders then his archers, you don't want more than 2 glade riders on your flank and they are weak to magic missiles.
Dryads are maneuverable, tough and hard hitting but lack combat res. Hit them with your Black Knights or Skeletons(preferably the one with the banner of hellfire to negate his ward save) Protect your flank.
Use your summon ghouls and lord of the dead to raise/re-raise your skeletons and ghouls. With your ghouls starting out larger and having 2 lvl 2 casters with +1 to their IoN you should find raising easier. The load stone will help you raise more ghouls and skeletons. It sounds like he does not have any casters so you should be able to get spells off with a lvl1 wizard, 2x lvl2 wizards, and 2 bound spells.
He does not really have much that your Direwolves could negate ranks with so you could charge them at his glade guard as a distraction. If you make it into combat you time them up for at least a round if not they did not shoot your other units for a turn.
Last edited by apbevan; November 10th, 2008 at 18:00.
2 Flayed Hauberks is illegal? I never realised... whoops
Models aren't a problem as both of us are new to FB and are playing proxy games to try and get a feel for the army. I'm thinking of using the following list next weekend, would value feedback
Vampire with Dread Knight, Walking Death, Blood Drinker (190 )
Vampire with Dark Acolyte , Lord of the Dead, Tomb Blade and Flayed Hauberk (195), OR Vampire with Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death and Hand of Dust (200 )
2 x 20 Skeletons with spears and full command (450 )
2 x 10 Ghouls (XXX)
9 Black Knights with full command and Royal Standard of Strigos (291)
10 Grave Guard with full command and Banner of the Barrows OR
The general idea is that the Dread Knight vampire (thanks for the tip, apbevan) will go up one flank and attempt to draw the Wild Riders, with a unit of ghouls and one of skeletons following close behind. On the other flank, the second ghoul squad will advance either alongside the Varghulf, or with the Grave Guard, depending on what I choose. If I take the Grave Guard I'll also take the Vampire with the Hand of Dust in the hope that he'll charge me with one of his expensive units and I can use it to whittle it down. The second skeleton unit will be more or less in the centre, able to support either flank if necessary.
Wood elves are one of our trickiest match ups so don't be too disappointed.
It looks like the list could do with a few adjustments and some of what apbevan has suggested is good but here's what I think.
Firstly the Vampires set up I would go with is:
Vampire- Dread Knight, Walking Death, Book of Arkhan
This will go with Black Knghts wth strigos banner so eternal hatred wont be needed and he has the book which can be used on the knights to ensure a charge as WE are very mobile and can ignore the knights if they want otherwise.
Vampire- Dark Acolyte, Lord of the dead, Flayed Hauberk, Black Periapt
This guys job is to to maintain the Skeletons unit sizes and add a bit of punch with the 3 S5 attacks in combat.
Vampire- Master of the Black arts, Helm of Comandment
This guy raises new units of zombies and generally maintains the army with his power dice. New zombie units will be very useful against WE as they help slow them down and can get in the way or stop them from fleeing by making most of the that the enemy will be destroyed if feing through an enemy US5+. The helm will also be invaluable as they will be hittig you o 4+ instead of 3+ which will make a big difference to combat results just be sure you hide this guy.
The rest of the army should look like this:
2x19 Skeletons with Spears and Full Command
20 Ghouls with Ghast
2x5 Dire wolves
Corpse Cart Unholy Lodestone
5 Black Knights with Barding, Full Comand and Standard of Strigos
This comes to 1497 and has 8 pwer dice which should be plenty to keep your army at a good strength and apply enough pressure that you can use the book againsta depleted defence.
BEN DIESEL FTW!!!
So what's the verdict on hand of dust/Varghulf? I worry about taking Dire Wolves and Corpse Carts, in the last game they seemed to just get in the way/give away victory points. I also fear that 5 Black Knights would die too quickly. My main fear is his Wild Riders, everything else I can handle but those guys gave me a serious headache.
You can never have 2 of the same magic item except Dispel Scrolls and Power Stones.
You can never go wrong with a Varghulf. He can hunt a lot of things alone and offers great support.
Hand of dust can be a great surprise and you went with avatar of death to make him more resilient and dark acolyte to make him decent caster. Sounds like a good vampire build.
Your making the same mistake of taking small units of ghouls which are perfect archer fodder. Your grave guard are more resilient but I would never take less than 14 with a character or 15 without.
Without the Corpse cart's first strike the spears become less attractive, save some points and make your skellies more resilient by taking hand weapon and shield.
Try this out:
Vampire with Dread Knight, Walking Death, Blood Drinker (190 )
Vampire with Dark Acolyte , Summon Ghouls, Tomb Blade and Flayed Hauberk (195 )
Vampire with Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death and Hand of Dust (200 )
2 x 19 Skeletons with HW+Shield and full command (344 )
1 x 12 Ghouls with Crypt Ghast (104 )
9 Black Knights with full command and Royal Standard of Strigos (291 )
Pro - Decent sized blocks of skeletons with good supporting vampires(Tomb Blade in one, Hand of dust in other.)
Pro - Strong unit of Black Knights with Blood Drinker Vampire
Pro - Varghulf
Con - Ghouls a little small, Needs to be raised from the start with the summon ghouls vampire.
Last edited by apbevan; November 10th, 2008 at 19:54.
ok first skeletons are great..... walking (usually) with a static CR of +5 plus kills, if you put them with a vampire (tomb blade and nightshroud) then you can get the extra kills.
Challenge with the vampire and if he accepts you strike first and get extra points for CR.
Your vampires look fine dire wolves are a great screening force for the varghulf, i would replace the ghouls with direwolves to screen the varghulf (in the list above) which may also fit in points for banners for the skeletons....always take a skeleton unit with war banner...it has saved my unit so many times. try it out.
Corpsecarts with balefire are excellent as the -1 to cast is good and the extra bound spell is useful yet if dispelled is no great loss (but gets rid of your opponents dispel dice)
Everyone assumes you will leave Book of Arkhan to last.....so do it....well almost.... after they use the last of their dice (hopefully)so then use hand of dust, it can cause great amounts of damage to any type of unit and normally wins you the outnumber bonus.
Btw are you going for magic heavy or combat heavy?
or a mix of both because your vampires should reflect that.
...TBH just look at the vampire abilities and item choices there are great combos for example red fury and the blooddrinker....extra attacks for every wound and regain wounds for every wound caused...think of your own and use them since you are only proxying you can try out loads of combos.....
SO yh what type of army would you like to field?
Remeber try it out, if you dont like it change it.
Last edited by Puppet_master; November 10th, 2008 at 20:58.
I like the look of that list Apbevan! I'm such a Warhammer noob... I didn't realise that by giving the skeletons spears I was depriving them of some much-needed armour, and I completely forgot about challenges. Something to keep in mind this weekend.
I'm hoping to use the Vargulf as a psychological weapon... I've been banging on all week about how hard it is, so hopefully he will concentrate all his fire on it and allow the Black Knights, Ghouls and the Hand of Dust Vampire to get into combat. Thanks for all the tips, I'll let you know how it went. Damn forest spirits, I will be avenged! *evil vampiric laugh*
The Vampire with Hand of Dust doesn't seem worth it to me you'd be better of with Lord of the Dead instead of Avatar of Death and Book of Arkhan or Helm of Comandmnt as they are the best magic items we get so use them if possible.
BEN DIESEL FTW!!!