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I put this in the Army list thread for somereason
I have a weekly game against some friends, one of them lise to win, he plays Dark Elves and Daemons, and is starting WE (only if he likes them after trying them he says, i.e. if he wins hands down)
Having never played warhammer FB before he is now 6-0 against us (he has beaten my friends Dwarf gunline, orcs and goblins (twice), bretonnians my other friends Empire army, and my mighty Ogres (haha))
I thought it was finally time that I played him with an army that was on par with his books.
Not being sure what he is playing, he will either go Daemons or DE.. Every DE I have seen has had a Hydra and an assassin with a large unit of Black Guard and the annoying scouts.. (this is at 1k!!)
The only time he has played Daemons (also 1k) he has taken a herald of khorne on a juggernaut and a herald of slaanesh..
so you can see he really likes to win...
I am hoping to finally beat him, and have been holding off on the VC until this week... we will be playing 1.5k, so I don't get a lord..
I can take a unit of 20 Graveguard (almost sure I will) with great weapons and banner of something, they should be able to handle the khorne herald, but beyond that I am not sure what to take against his hydra should he play DE. Ghouls with their poison attacks seems likely, but at str 3, I will be hard pressed to wound his uber hydra with anything but poison.
Cadaverous Cuirass seems almost a must for my general, with so much killing blow and the potential for poison out there..
Any recomendations from someone who has tackled Daemons or DE before?
Demons are nasty, but lose their primary bonus against undead, in the ability to kill stuff and keep it killed. You should focus on casting power on your Vampires, and get a decent sized shambling horde going.
A couple of Corpse Carts properly equipped can really mess up a magic-heavy army like demons or Dark Elves for that matter. Against Dark Elves, opt for things like Black Knights. These boys are able to outmanouvre any other units as they can rush straight through terrain, and their killing blow is as good as any other. To take out the Hydra, go for something that will foul it up in combat for numerous turns, war of attrition will win our in the end.
A large and cheap block of skellies will be great, especially given teh Hydra and beastmasters cannot kill more than you can raise.
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do you recommend 3 vampires? 2 and a wight king, or necromancers?
I am not sure which one he is going to play, i am hoping to keep him in the dark about me playing VC as well.
I have finally resorted to asking for advice though, he always finds out what we are playing, then makes a list tailor made to destroy ours.
Your friend sounds charming - id be tempted to run 2 vamps and a necro on corpse cart or if your taking black knights a wight king so that you can keep them using that wonderful ethereal movement.
Personally id go for a magic heavy list as if done properly we can deal with the DEs and Daemons PD reasonably well and also use it to win the war of attrition Kithre just described , things like black knights are fantastic units to take , especially when combined with the banner that grants double unit strength.
Grave Guard are in my opinion a must against an opponent like this , great weapons , a vampire in the unit , banner of strigoi (preferred) or banner of barrows on unit std bearer , and drakenoff banner on a bsb - if you have the points id also put a corpse cart in the grave guard unit(necromancer mounting it ofc) with either unholy loadstone or balefire - both are great for what you want to achieve.
With your core selection keep in mind what Kithre said , a vampire with tomb blade and the +1 combat resolution bloodline power , inside a unit of skeletons with warbanner well go along way , easily keeping up its numbers and winning that all important war of attrition.
Just a few thoughts off the top of my head , hope they help.
Keep us posted with your progress!
Against Daemons. Just spam light spells, with ridiculous casting values. Against Dark Elves, well, it's not like you lost anything. Also, Khorne suffers from mobility issues, and Dark Elves have artillery. Fel Bats and Dire Wolves would be good. Another good unit would be Zombies, as both armies wont appreciate being tarpitted.
I feel the best way to win against an opponent like that...is to play with someone else.
The Camden Brigade
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So we played last night, we made it a 2k game, here is what I took, i decided to be a turd and get 17 power dice a turn
Lord, lvl 4, Master of black arts, dark acolyte, black periapt, hand of dust, cadaverous cuirass, talisman of protection, mounted on nightmare
vampire, master of black arts, book of arkan
vampire, master of black arts, rod of flaming death
vampire, master of black arts, bsb, standard of x2 unit strength
20 zombies, banner
20 zombies, banner
20 zombies, banner
15 ghouls - ghast
20 graveguard, banner of strigos and great weapons, full command
5 black knights, full command
4 fell bats
i put the lord and the bsb in with the graveguard. the other 2 went with the ghouls
He took the unkillable dreadknought in a unit of coldone knights, a 20 man black guard unit with an ass-ass-in, a hydra, 2 reaper bolt throwers, 2 mounted scorceresses, a unit of 6 or 7 shades, 2 blocks of 15 spearmen and 10 crossbowmen
We ran out of time (flgs closed) on the 3rd turn believe it or not.. we had some complicated combats, so we just called it a draw, but I think I was winning..
My graveguard and lord and banner unit was unharmed, reraised after clashing with the black guard and lord unit, flank and reared with raise dead zombies , the black guard was dead and the lord had run the previous turn but regrouped. My banner lost him magic lvl in my only miscast.
My black knights were dead after tangling with the hydra (sooooo undercosted) but he was reduced to 2 wounds after tieing it up the entire game.
fell bats ran around and killed one bolt thrower and were in combat with the second one after overrunning
I rod of flaming deathed one scorceress, and ran another one off the board from static res with zombies.
So on the bottom of turn 4 I had my healthy grave guard unit, 3 healthy hero vamps (minus one magic lvl and therefore 3 dice) a healthy lord, 2 of the 4 bats, and 30 or so zombies.
He had a hydra with 2 wounds left and the beastmasters of course, the lord unit, 1 crewman for the bolt thrower, 6 shades, 30 spearmen and 10 crossbowmen.
i was not even remotely worried, his lord wasn't that killy, just could take a hit, but without the black guard, I was going to rear and flank him, outnumber and outbanner him, not to mention outrank him, so by static I was going to win combat unless he caused a great number of wounds, and flanked by ghouls with 2 vampires and fronted by my graveguard unit I think i would be okay. I would have thrown zombies in the hydra's way who was facing the wrong way so I would have had time to raise some. the spearmen I wasn't afraid of At all, nor the shades...