Welcome to Librarium Online!
I've been playing small games with VC since the previous army book. I was always playing 40K as well, so never went into painting up a large enough core force to play large games (The amount of zombies I'd have to keep on hand alone was daunting enough).
However now I've shelved my 40K armies and I moved back to my first love, the undead!
I've been reading the new army book religiously, and I'm quite frankly abit confused. It seems we only have a handful of tricks and everything seems to have been focused on making the iconic vampires more...vampirey.
It's kinda hard for me to name any one thing, but it seems our core units are now just really variations on a core that sucks in melee and is supposed to stay alive while our other, more expensive special and rare units kill things.
It's ofcourse always awesome being able to resurrect ones own units...in the games I've played it gets dispelled more than half the time.
VC seems to work out from the principle that once something dies, it might not stay dead. *shrug* I don't know...stuff seems to stay pretty dead in the games I play, and from no lack of trying.
And what happened to all the flavorful stuff we use to have? The entire bloodline mechanic (and I don't just mean the vampiric powers), our skirmishing ghouls, slavering charge (hell, Dire wolves get melee'd to pieces by war machine crews now)
Maybe it's just me, but the new book even looks to be of considerably less quality than the old one. Less artwork, less flavor text etc.
This is just a general whine post I guess...My frustrations at the army book have just been mounting, especially after I dug up the old one and starting comparing them. I mean, there's cool stuff like the corpse cart I guess...but then not a whole lot of new stuff, and to me the good stuff gets overwhelmed by the bad.
*whine whine, cringe, emo, whine whine and so on*
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm losing heart fellow Generals of Blood...can 'ya reassure me of our dominance of the Night? =p
Last edited by PrOtOcoN; December 2nd, 2008 at 16:13.
Your fluffraping hurts my eyes. - TehDarkPredator
you're either smokin' something funny or never played the old book because the new book is head and shoulders above the old book and almost every other book that has come out in 7th edition. That being said, some of your problems may be dice rolling or the fact that you're playing small games. VC is an army that really needs the lord character in my opinion. In small games, you're magic is going to have a hard time getting going and your opponent is probably going to rely on shooting more than usual (which is more effective in small games) Once you hit 2000pts plus, your army will really come into its own. Your characters will rock, your magic (if you take multiple vamps) will overpower and your army (usually) will swarm the enemy (fear and outnumber for the win!)
Tell us a bit about your opponents and we can try to help you out, but I think part of your lack of success may be due to the small point games you're playing.
I have to really agree with buckero0 in that vampire counts really dont come into their shine until they reach the lord level. At the small game level the only real suggestion I have is use our strengths, field a Varghulf and move your army as a group. I'll admit I also miss the slavering charge rule though the point reduction is nice. I also love the point reduction and unit strength boost that the bat swarms recieved. Remember that your necromancy spells can be cast multiple times by the same caster in the same turn.
The Camden Brigade
Do good things, good things happen. Do bad things, and kharma hits you with a car.
20 Bucks. Eat it; Ride it; Hump it. I don't care. - Earl J. Hickey
If my choices are "Having never played" or "High" I guess I'll have to check those brownies I got recently...whee =D
I understand what you guys are saying, we've had some point reduction in the cost of units which is nice. But our really nice and cool units suffer from the fact that they're undead.
An example is the Varghulf. Say I charge a unit of 20 clanrats. Assuming they don't break and I get to melee I NEED to kill with all of my attacks just to break even. Ofcourse with the Varghulf's mobility I should be able to get a flank or even a rear charge...but you see what I'm talking about. That awesome combat vampire? Better hope he doesn't bring alot of guys, since that rank bonus alone is going to give you a uphill fight.
I don't really understand why we don't have any skirmishers (save for the Wraiths which are ethereal already, I mean talk about getting it all) or ranged units (again, except for the banshee). The method of fighting seems to be "march up to the enemy, kill him dead". With very little variation. No ranged combat, no fast melee unit that can hold its own in CC (referring to core here, blood knights are ofcourse sick but they really should be at 55 points a pop) and no warmachines.
Variation is what I'm whining about at the moment I guess. I'm paging through another undead army book, Tomb Kings, and my heart weeps just seeing all the options they have. Core cavalry (Hey, I love Black Knights as much as the next guy, but Core cavalry...amagad), swarms, Bone giants, mmm....
I guess what I'm saying is that while VC has alot of cool units they're all kinda samey, you know what I mean? I was hoping for more variety in the new book, new units, new ideas. I've got no idea why they didn't make non-undead Sylvanian mercenaries a part of the core book seeing as it seems to deal primarily with Sylvanian vampires. Where are integrated rules for mass graves? What happened to Lahmian Swains? (One of the coolest ideas evar!) and so on and so on.
Again, I'm not saying VC doesn't work...I'm just saying that they could've done so much more than rearranging statlines and modifying points costs =p
Last edited by PrOtOcoN; December 2nd, 2008 at 19:23.
Your fluffraping hurts my eyes. - TehDarkPredator
How do I delete this?! =p
Last edited by PrOtOcoN; December 2nd, 2008 at 19:05.
Your fluffraping hurts my eyes. - TehDarkPredator
I'd like to address a few of these points:
1) We have core cavalry (direwolves), and they're good (really fast + dirt cheap)
2) The problem with the Varhulf or combat vamp (or any undead) losing to static CR is exactly the same as the last book. The only thing that can charge in unsupported is a lord on a monster.
3) We do have fast melee units, if you count the use of Danse to speed them up.
4) You can still build bloodline vamps by choosing the appropriate powers.
5) Lahmian swains were never legal; those back-of-the-book lists are for fun only, and aren't legal in any way. The only two exceptions I've ever seen are the Lizardmen Southlands list (which specifically states that it is legal) and the 6th edition Snotling Horde (which, while technically illegal, no-one would object to you using).
That being said, I do agree that we need a core skirmishing unit like everyone else. Also, I'm very disappointed that I can no longer give all of my vamps the Wolf Form power (I played a fluff list in 6th ed).
The new book, however, is still 150% of beat stick.
Thunder rolled across the sky; and it rolled a six.
Essentially, the new army has a more 'horror-flick' feel to it than the old book did. Rather than having elite, decent units, it relies on mobs of faceless, nameless shambling dead. The army falls apart without it's skeleton mobs around for support. A bunch of lonely vampires are going to be wiped off the table, but you need those skeletons to give you combat resolution.
I like the book as well. We got the new varghulf, the corpse cart, and our magic abilities are disgusting. The fluff that they present is really quite good, and although it focuses primarily on the Von Carstien's, it still presents some great stuff. I like the new feel, that the vampires are not always seductive, and that in battle they become ghastly looking beasts. I like the way that the blood knights are presented in the fluff, and the Wraith unit is a personal favorite of mine, on the table.
And speaking of the Wraith unit- you are complaining that we have ethereal skirmishers?! That unit is amazing! They get 3A each, with GREAT WEAPONS, and thanks to being ethereal, it doesn't matter when they strike. Wraiths are one unit which I send confidently into the thickest fighting, because my average unit has 13A plus the Shriek.
The only thing I miss from the old book is the vampires themselves. It was awesome to have a WS10 blood dragon vampire and the zacharias the everliving was pretty cool.
That being said everything else is a whole lot more balanced and directed at what the VC should be, a horde of undead marching forwards at the whims of a madman.
Although it would have been cool if they included sylvanian troops (especially some bowman would have been useful) and kept ghouls as alive instead of classifying them as undead (regardless of how they explain it) I like the list a whole lot.
I also miss some of the alternate lists, I loved the old drakenhoff guard, GW wielding grave guard in plate armor, drool.
Most Notable Achievements:
Killed a Revenant Titan in one shot.
Killed 900 pts worth of Blood Angels in 2 turns while only loosing 4 pts.
im half and half on this issue...
we have blood knights and black knights.. both have there quirks but you could pick one or the other (or both) and at equal points tend to do the same. TBH though once the wow factor of the bloodkinghts wear's off there abit bleh.
we have skeletons or ghouls... both once again have there quirks but you need to pick one or the other. Sure the stats are different by they basicly perform the same role but slightly differently. Probly shouldve given ghouls what they got now but made them skirmisher's.
i do however like the new vamps ,with the old book for me it was always a case of "the grass is greener" when it came to bloodlines. Now i can do what i want and if willing to spend the points can have the best caster or fighter in the game.
i admit some warmachines and shooters would be nice, but the last thing the VC need now is more reasons for someone to winge about them being over powerd and unbalanced. If you really want some theres always dogs of war.
and wraiths there actualy alot more usefull then they where before IMO.
it kind of reminds me of the dreaded 40k, spacemarines have soo many types of unit
and have new stuff released all the time and soo many tactics and combinations.. but i still look at them and think NAH and play imperial guard.
with fantasy i look at stuff like the empire's variety and all the ways they could be played and NNAAAAHHHHH give me grave guard and begging to the dice gods for a vanhels any day
I dont play fantasy to have the best army and win the most battles.. thats why i picked VC , you'll laugh , you'll cry, youll win by miles, youll loose by miles, youll spend ages scratching your head thinking WTF? ..you'll spend the rest of your life painting zombies... but i guarantee youll always have a smile on your face
I'll chime in with some of my points, but first I'd like to thank everyone for the lively discussion! I'd also like to preface this rant with that I don't want them to bump the VC codex, make everything stronger and more awesome while dropping the points cost. I'd like to see a more varied and more flavorful army book, something with abit more bite (pun intended)Dire wolves are fast and cheap, fair enough. They hit like sissies though, so while I field them and feel awesome as they race across the field it's abit disheartening how much they really do suck in CC. I mean, take one and put it next to another model. Look at the size of the thing! They're a giant wolf and undead to boot! The new models look awesome. The loss of Slavering Charge took away their bite but gave them quite a bark (yet another pun)Originally Posted by DrMike105The scrapping of bloodlines is a much more widespread change than can be fully reclaimed by simply choosing the equivalent powers from a list. This is the same trend that ruined the 40K chaos codex (A product they've apologized for) and one that I balk at seeing in one of my favorite armies. I'm referring here to fluff, theme and even statlines (Hey, where's my +1 to cast?! Khaaaan!). My most niggling annoyance with the lack of bloodlines is from a fluff standpoint, Von Carstein were my least favorite bloodline so I have no great joy in all the attention they're getting.Originally Posted by DrMike105Aye, the back of the book lists were just for fun. Guess we can't have any of that, out with it! ^^ That's what the game is supposed to be, fun! Why take out the fun things? Make it illegal, write it in big bold letters but atleast keep it in there. Give us more variety! Back of the Skaven book has the exact example I'm referring to. Greater Clan lists that add NOTHING but fun to the game. Hell, I'm looking forward to facing a Eshin Sorcerer or a Harbinger of Mutation soon! (my girlfriend plays Skaven ^^). Variety is the spice of life, Vampire counts taste pretty bland to me. =pOriginally Posted by DrMike105Oh no no, I'm not complaining about them, not at all. However I'd not mind at all if we'd spread their awesome around abit. They just seem to have it all! Terror, Etherealness, Skirmish, Banshee scream, great weapons. They're a kickass unit, no doubt. But why not nerf them abit, lower the cost, lower their killyness (now a term, if it wasn't already) and give, oh I don't know, ghouls skirmish instead?Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai
No no, I'm not complaining about Wraiths, I just mentioned in jest that they seemed to be getting everything ^^
To me Vampire Counts are infact two different things. They are the armies of terrifying vampiric armies as well as a list to represent the undead, led by fell necromancers. The old army book represented this well, even suggested a army with no vampires as a viable alternative (*gasp*, alternatives?! HERESY!). It's a match that makes sense. A whole new army book "just" to not have vampires? Silly. But now that option is gone (Good, less options means more concentrated awesome...amarite? =D)I completely agree with this statement and it really sums up how I feel about Warhammer in general. I ofcourse want a viable list, one that can win. But I don't want to sacrifice fluff, flavor or variety to get at that. I don't want a big pile of WIN, I want a big pile of awesome which I can mould into cool shapes.Originally Posted by manicdemise
A question I'd like to raise connected to this is of Tomb Kings. They've got loads of variety, archers, war machines crazy monsters that pop out of the ground and all that jazz. Are they overpowered? A rhetorical question the answer to which is "No not really..." So why is the Vampire Counts Army Book allergic to varied units? Tomb Kings has, just as core units, Melee, spearmen, archers, two types of cavalry, poisonous burrowing swarm and a chariot! Awesome variety! Vampire counts has Melee, spearmen, melee, poison melee, fast cav, flying swarm, Corpse cart which granted is awesome.
But don't just look at the statline, look at what it is you are given. Look at the entire list. It's samey, it tells you exactly what to do with it, because that's all it CAN do. It lacks crunch, flavor, variety.
You don't have to hate the Vampire counts army list to agree with this. I myself don't hate it, I'm just disappointed in what GW seems to consider the next step for VC. Does it win battles? I seem to be. But does it feel as fun as previously, does it tantalize you with whispers of untried strategies or alternatives? No, not at all.
Try something for me. If you own the old Vampire Counts book pick it up and page through it alongside the new one. Page for page. Which one drips with style and theme? Which one makes you more want to lunge at your foe and tear out his jugular and cavort in the arterial spray? Which one leaves you with a better feel for vampires and their ilk? Which one has more game tips, more painting advice, more modelling and conversion advice? Which one has more alternatives for play and frankly better design and execution?
I'm not trying to prove anything with this, not trying to lure you into admitting anything. Just check it out and tell me what you think.
If variety is the spice of life and if Dune taught us anything...Variety is what matters most.
(Sadly I couldn't work a third pun in there...I was totally ready with a "Punisher" line and everything...*sigh*)
Last edited by PrOtOcoN; December 3rd, 2008 at 01:56.
Your fluffraping hurts my eyes. - TehDarkPredator