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I'd like some opinions on these strategies. Sorry this is so long!
Forbidden Lore - Lore of Beasts
Second Vampire Hero
Talisman of the Lycni
Flayed Hauberk - or the Sceptre of Noirot
Walking Death - or Avatar of Death if you use the Sceptre
Basic idea is this - the Vampire with the lore of Beasts will get the spell off, turning the other Vampire Hero into a hulking, str7, t5, a6 monstrosity. The Talisman of Lycni will get him to the other side fastest, and he can begin summoning zombies as shields/tar pits while he beats the crap out of a softer unit. Infinite Hatred means that his 6 attacks are more likely to hit, and if there's a unit that can resist strength 7, you charged a Bloodthirster by accident.
This has a few variations. The Hauberk can be replaced by the Nightshroud, or the talisman can be gotten rid of and just keep both the Hauberk and the Sceptre. This is a little slower, but if it works it's pretty scary.
Charging 20 High Elf Spearmen in the flank, 5 Wide/4 Deep
ASF resolves, Elves pass the fear test - let's say 6 attacks, as they lose one rank when charged in the side and 3 models are in base contact.
6 attacks at 4+ - 3 hit
3 attacks at str3 (6s) - one, if any.
Possible one save at 2+
6 attacks hitting on 3+ - 4 hit
Reroll misses - all hit, perhaps 1 miss
5-6 attacks at str 7 - 4-5 wounds
Vampire receives +5 CR
Elves are left with 1 banner, 3 ranks, and outnumber - drawn combat. (Musician may cause a win?)
The Vampire may draw and take a wound if he fails to kill all 6 of the spearmen, but he should not be taking wounds from the spearmen themselves. If you repeat this process, you take out another rank and then win combat. If other units can't reach the spearmen because of zombies, you can use invocation to heal later.
There are several different things you could do here, too. You could prevent ASF with the Nightshroud - although you'd be essentially unable to make saves, you'd still have toughness 5 to their strength 3. If you had another Vampire taking Lore of Shadows - which many Vampire armies include - you could potentially give the bear-vampire terror as well. The Lore of Beasts still has an Danse Macabre spell - +9, for 2d6" rather than 8". This could prove useful as well, giving a non-Talisman'ed Vampire a significant boost. The magic missiles in Lore of Beasts can also soften up the units you want the Vampire bear to charge, but you need to have the hero with the Lore close enough to cast The Bear's Anger.
The only difficulty with this strategy is the fact that the Hero who charges in can no longer use a weapon, making Tomb Blade/Scouting unfeasible.
2nd strategy -
Vampire Hero #1 - replace Lore of Beasts with Lore of Light
Vampire Hero #2
Put this Hero into a Wraith unit. Pha's Illumination makes it so magic weapons are treated like normal weapons. It gives him strength 5 and 3 attacks, so it's a regular profile vampire hero, but he's invulnerable to attack. He also doesn't suffer from the attack-last rule of the great weapons, so his 3 attacks at WS6, S5 can be directed against any champion carrying a 25 point magic weapon, helping save some of the Wraiths. The unit has a synergistic effect - since the Vampire can't be killed without CR or magic missiles, you have to take out the Wraiths first. But he can also heal the wraiths with Invocation, keeping his wraith-screen alive.
How do these ideas sound?
Your first argument is slightly flawed - you shouldn't be aiming to draw combat vs Spears, and you could happen on that one citizen solidery/militia/regular unit which is carrying a nice magical item. Flank charging with any character on his own and not US5+ is going to be risky. Especially as tarpit zombie units created on teh other side of the field are quite small, and hence are more than likely to get run down and provide an overrun to your enemy...
Both strategies also require you to get spells off, which may or may not be a good thing, as dispels happen in BOTh magic phases against your RiP spells
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Well i think this is a funny idea and you should try it, but a few problems i can see
* 1 unit who is very strong is great, but your putting a lot of pts on making a vampire slingshot. plus yea you get 6 atks if you get the spell off, which is cool, but, but you are wasting your heros to attack basic squads that with one bad combat can just disapear. Thats maybe to risky
Another flaw i see if a knight on a horse has 7str, not as many of attacks, but with a squad he will have just not more attacks, can get bonus cause of combat, and overall maybe be better.
However. I would try this army, but have 3 vampires ready to become a bear and send that at the enemies. Give them just good equiptment and vamp powers. Field ghouls with ghouldkin and maybe dire wolfs and fel bats. the object i see is crazy swarm anything they have , scare those casters and machines off with fear so your vampires will easily become bears and use them to take out basic troops, maybe special and if needed to take out something big, join a unit and kick butt.
Please post how this army does, or i will try it out Sunday which is my game day. i can find lots of laughs with this arm and can only think of one really awesome thing
FIELD KONRAD AND MAKE HIM A BEAR, HE'D HAVE WHAT WS 7 S7, 8Atks, Hated and Frenzy on a good roll, Red Fury,wow that guy would be freakin crazy
Good Luck and have fun!
8th Ed WOOT
A few things:
1.) I am assuming that these low level spells are going off because you have nastier ones in reserve that the opponent will not want to have cast. Bring a few Corpse Carts, maybe the Skull Staff to make things more difficult.
2.) This is clearly not a sound idea - suicidal even - but lots of people talk about making a suicidal vampire, and this is just my concept of one
3.) I'm also assuming that you are approaching the enemy concurrently with the rest of your army. If he manages to face two units of his own men to take down a vampire hero, I would hope that he meets with a Black Knight charge to the flank.
4.) Elven spearmen were meant to be a difficult example, not actually what you would charge. Imagine charging a squad of 15 archers with six Strength 7 attacks with rerolls. You would decimate it.
4a.) This is actually better suited towards charging cavalry. Lower unit number/higher unit strength per model means that if you charge a squad of 6 cavalry, you could have it down to half strength easily, and it would have no rank bonus to give it any static CR. Plus they would be denied their lances.
Blood Knights would be hit on a 3 with rerolls, wounded on 2, and their armor save would be null. You could even prevent their charge with the Nightshroud, ensuring that you get to strike first. That's a 500 point unit of cavalry essentially gone.
To the second person:
Actually, giving two vampires the lore of Beasts opens up an interesting list of spells. Discounting the psychology one, there are a couple of spells that work well in the army, and nothing casts on more than 9+. There's the 24" bolt thrower spell, the 2d6" Danse Macabre - which has twice the range of Danse for 2 extra casting cost - and a weaker version of the Gaze of Nagash. Considering you get to keep Invocation, taking two lore of Beasts isn't a terrible hindrance, unless you need Raise Dead.
I see a lot of promise for a combination of the Lore of Death and a slingshot vampire - cast Doom and Darkness on a few units, since it isn't remains in play, and slingshot a terror causing vampire into the back of the enemy army. -3 leadership sinks everyone, except maybe Dwarves.
The most important point in all of this is what kithre mentioned - the fact it is a Remains in Play spell makes this very hard to pull off with any certainty. The only way to guarantee this works, is to first charge into combat, THEN cast it on the vamp...the enemy might just dispel it, and so they get some free VP's because you charged into a bad combat...
You can get around it, by charging in the Magic Phase instead, but that's more power dice needed, more chance and luck added to the mix.
Also, Bears anger is only a 4+ spell, hardly a difficult one to get rid of in the next magic phase using Power Dice. Even my Khorne army gets power dice to dispel stuff with...
If you really wanted to kill a unit of archers, just hit them with a Vargulf. Wraiths take care of most Cav. There's better way's to kill these things, I reckon, then risking one of you Vampires...unless he's on a Dragon!
Finally, 'The Wolf Hunts' that you compare to Vanhels isn't quite the same. It only works on Cav, Monsters, Chariots and Swarms. You'd need some Black Knights, a Coach or similar to cast it on. Just though I'd mention that.
I suppose that is true. You could potentially cast it on a unit you intend to Danse, either with the spell or the Book of Arkhan.
Perhaps just using the spell Doom and Darkness, since it is not Remains in Play, and flanking with a terror causing vampire would work. I think I should play a few matches with these ideas to see them in action.
Side note: The Lore of Beasts movement spell only works on cavalry, swarm, chariot or monster (ridden or unridden), so it can't be used on the vampire with bears anger.
2000AD's answer to all "How do VC deal with ..." questions: Forbidden Lore + 2 Power Stones.
Further answers will require more vodka.
Well, presumably that would be why you were taking the talisman or book, to speed that vampire up. I understand that the Beast spell is unable to move the vampire (it was stated previously), but that's not necessarily contingent on getting this to work.
Imagine a 3k army, use a lord instead of a hero. Outfit him with red fury and hatred, some equipment to keep him alive - I could envision a suicidal vampire with a decent survivability rate. Maybe put the Blood Drinker on him just in case his spell gets snuffed.