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View Poll Results: Magic or Combat?

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  • Combat List?

    4 10.00%
  • Magic List?

    11 27.50%
  • Mixed List?

    25 62.50%
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  1. #1
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    Combat or Magic?

    Magic List?
    Combat List?
    Mixed List?


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  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    I personally run a massed Magic list. I have a feeling that Mirage and probably Nagash will show up here eventually.

    It's my opinion that the Vampire Counts can be MOST successful with a massed magic list. I'm not saying that a mixed or even a combat list can't possibly win, but in a tournament, or any game where you want an easy win- magic is the way to go.

    We pay premiums for our core troops, because we can raise them. We should be paying about half as much as we really are for each of our cores, just because they expect us to raise each of them at least once per game. If we don't do that, then we have some of the most costly troops in the game.

    Think about it- whenever you hear someone complaining about the "cheesy" things about VC, what do they mention? They invariably hate that every one of our characters is also a caster, that we can repeat our castings, and that we can bring back models that we lose to our mistakes.
    Any of our units can, theoretically, become a tarpit, because we can always bring them up. Unless the enemy wipes them out in a single round of combat, they can expect to be fighting them for as long as we want them to.

    People will argue that our vampires are needed for combat. This is simply not true. We have the ultimate min-max army. We can start a 2k game with 3 core regiments of 10 models, and by the end of the game have any number of regiments with any number of models. We have an infinite supply of models for "anvil units" if we can keep up the flow of magic. We're the ultimate Victory Point denial army.
    We can tie up the enemy on our ranks of zombies and skeletons, and then smash them with some of the most potent units of their types. Skirmishing Wraiths, Blood Knight cavalry, Grave Guard infantry regiments- we can hit them with that and their regiments will cave. If we're in a bind, we can tie up their toughest units with our expendable ones.

    If we use vampires for combat, then we sacrifice our ability to raise models. Even if the vampire is tooled for killing, we have to get him to the combat. The only units that we have which will kill off an enemy unit effectively, can do it without a vampire's help. So why make that sacrifice? I vote Magic all the way.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  4. #3
    Senior Member 2000AD's Avatar
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    55 (x1)

    Does a blood knight bunker army count as mixed? Or do you need more than more hard unit to be combat?

    Personally I go for a mixed list as VC are inherently magic heavy and only need a little upgrading to be more magic then most armies going all out magic. Magic is also the most unreliable phase so basing an entire army on it can lead to ruin if you're just a little unlucky.
    2000AD's answer to all "How do VC deal with ..." questions: Forbidden Lore + 2 Power Stones.
    Further answers will require more vodka.

  5. #4
    Member Stavrogin's Avatar
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    9 (x1)

    Mixed...
    Heavy magic can be boring and win depends of the dices you roll...
    Heavy combat can be really interesting (however-lists with 1 vamp and 3 wights are not considered to be competative), but IMO we cannot allow ourself not to bring our troops back.
    If i'm a priest, i'm not a saint.

  6. #5
    Member Jack Shrapnel's Avatar
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    Combat all the way... (okay the vamps are casters by default and the level 3 upgrade on a lord is pretty much mandatory but I don't call anything 9 PD or under magic heady anymore)

    This is more due to my playstyle than anything else... if I'm casting anything it's ION and Vanhels 90% of the time... anything else (other than Wind of Undeath if anyone ever lets you cast it and you don't blow yourself up attempting!) doesn't really net me much reward actually.... I find magic pretty fickle... and ever since the demons, VC and DE, people are bringing a pretty hefty magic defence (around here anyways) so magic really doesn't seem to be an efficient use of points... compared to what you can buy with the points for a combat vamp....

    .... I love the reliability and sheer destructive power of a vamp tooled for combat... try dispelling THAT!


  7. #6
    Member Nosferratu's Avatar
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    I prefer mixed. The dice are WAY too ficle with me for my army to rely on any one type of gaming style.

  8. #7
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    It's a dice game... I will never understand how magic is any less reliable than combat.

    Magic: we roll a chosen number of dice, and depending on the number of dice we throw, we need a particular number on each die. Then our opponent chooses to roll their die, and depending on how many they decide to throw, they need a certain number on each die to stop our effect. Then we roll for the effect.

    Combat: you roll a predetermined number of dice, required a predetermined number to Hit. Then we roll a predetermined number of dice, needing another predetermined number to Wound. Then our opponent gets to roll predetermined sets of dice to make their saves, needing a predetermined number on each die to stay alive.

    Casting = Roll to Hit
    Effect = Roll to Wound
    Dispelling = Roll to Save

    Now, if we fluff our magic rolls, and roll double 1's, we suffer negative results that MAY kill us.
    If you fluff your attacks, they will hit back and they MAY kill us.

    If we roll 6's for our magic rolls, we cast with irresistible force.
    If we roll 6's for attacks or wounding, and have poison or killing blow, we deal irresistible effects.

    If we fluff a combat and have low CR, we may be killed by Crumble or by an opponent who is standing toe-to-toe with us in subsequent rounds.
    If we fluff our magic, our character is still safe for that round.

    If the enemy brings tons of close combat, you'd probably do better if you'd had more magic.
    If he brings more magic defense, you'd be better off having brought combat.

    The difference is, being strong in magic also gives us a stronger magical defense. Our characters are naturally proficient in combat, and we have other 'fighty' units. So if our opponenet decides to go magic heavy, we can defend ourselves and kill his mages with our own characters.
    If they decide to go combat heavy, then we can magic them down.
    If they find some way to bring a lot of resistance to the table against my army, they're still looking at 15PD all aimed at IoN, VHD, and Raise Dead. Low level spells that are targeted on MYSELF. Magic Resistance won't help you.

    I'm not arguing against close combat, and I've had fun running combat lists in the past. However, I believe that a magic heavy list will out perform any other list. This is especially true of any army which can take a save and have some combat proficiency with their wizards, like VC and WoC.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  9. #8
    Pro at everything Mirage.'s Avatar
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    Mixed, a heavy magic list is too unpredictable, so a list with a solid amount of dice (9ish) and a decent amount of combat is the way to go IMO.
    Magic Heavy is probably the most effective vc build along with OTT combat army, but both of these types make people hate VC and tend to get boring after awhile, so i prefer to stay away from them.

  10. #9
    Member Stavrogin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    It's a dice game... I will never understand how magic is any less reliable than combat.
    Simple-you can reduce amount of dice you really need to be good for you...
    Example-when you hit standard WS3/S3/T3 20men unit in front with skelies/gg with war banner supported with flanking dire wolves...
    +1 flank-and deny his +3 on ranks
    +1 outnumber
    +1 war banner
    +3 ranks
    You dont have to relly on skelies/wolves attacks to do something...


    In case of magic...well, if you're not taking forbidden lore on all vamps you cannot guarantee that you will get spells that you need-in most cases you will have 2 vamps with VDM (considering it is best spell you can use in most cases).
    Opponent must stop only your succesfull spells.
    Selecting and ignoring unimportant spells makes opponent magic defence really strong.
    Efectivly, most opponents need only 2 DD for our bound items and only 3-4 scrolls to keep our VDM and other unwanted magic at bay...
    Of course, if you take max of 16PD that can scare most opponents, but it really increases chance for miscast-also, 3 vamps in this case must be lvl 1 so no 3 dice casting...
    And last, but not the least-it makes you play boring game...you know, kinda "on 4+ i win"...
    Also-magic is main reason why lots of people started disliking us playing VC...
    I really started missing old days and vampire pirates list...
    Last edited by Stavrogin; July 31st, 2009 at 02:34. Reason: spelling
    If i'm a priest, i'm not a saint.

  11. #10
    Senior Member 2000AD's Avatar
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    55 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    It's a dice game... I will never understand how magic is any less reliable than combat.
    Because in combat if you rolls 1s to hit you only miss, you don't risk being dragged off into the nether realms by a daemon. Magic carrys with it unavoidable risks that can easily ruin an entire game, as pointed out above the risks of combat can be effectively minimised.
    2000AD's answer to all "How do VC deal with ..." questions: Forbidden Lore + 2 Power Stones.
    Further answers will require more vodka.

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