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Me and my buddies got quite 'into' the Warhammer hobby again, both Fantasy AND 40k. We've mainly been playing 40k now and thought we'd start side projects; Warhammer Fantasy ones. I really like undead in a way, and the Zombie models look cool, so does the Corpse Cart. I'd also convert my Necromancers from the Empire Battle Wizards.
As you see I'm quite excited, but one thing worries me. I've heard alot people saying Vampire Counts are a broken army, and full of cheese and mainly for tourney-people. As I read the army book, I realised it very much is so. Now, I don't want to make a cheesy list by any means, just a friendly list based on like Zombies and Corpse Cart and some Felbats with a converted vampire hero etc. Hope those aren't cheesy choices. I'm not that aknowledged of FaBa so, you tell me.
I really want to avoid all the possible cheese-comboes and all. I hope you people could tell me them so I can safely stay away from them. On the other hand, I would like to know some good comboes regarding Necromancers and Corpse Carts, or strategies etc. too. I think we're gonna stick to 1000-1250 points in the Fantasy section, for now, so would an army like this be by any means playable: Vampire hero with a Felbat retinue, 2 Necromancers, one on a Corpse Cart, 2 Units of Zombies, 1 Unit of Ghouls, some of the undead hounds (wotchacallem?) and like a Varghulf or Wraiths? The Grave Guards are also an option, but don't quite fit the theme on 'Zombieees'
As long as you're not going to try and flood the field with zombies as some lists are made to build a unit or multiple units of 100+ zombies, you sound like you will be creating a fairly friendly army....at least to your opponent. Zombies don't really do much damage and are really only meant for tarpits to stall the enemy.
The rest of your army is very legit and honestly can be a very friendly army to play against as long as you don't exploit some of the more tried and true tourney combos. The Cheesy-ness of the army is more about the person playing the army and less the units composed within the army. So as long as you're in it to have fun...you will and so will your opponent.
I personally think they are over-rated and because of this, I don't think i've seen them won a tounament in ages. Just avoid having a unit of 10 wraiths, a big unit of blood knights with drakenhoff banner, 14 power dice (I think thats where the complaints come in) and the list should be fine. Even then I'd be more worried about a blood thirster or a star dragon, mutlipul stegadons/hydras.
Vampire Counts have the potential to be a pretty disgusting army. The reason that you haven't seen them win a tournament recently is because of a few factors:
1) army composition has really started cracking down on vampires, because it's easy to restrict our strength by limiting item combos
2) people are expecting vampires. Luckily, where I play, people don't always show up with counts, but I still see players who participate in other tourneys bring armies that are well balanced, but have special considerations for vampires
3) Dark Elves and Daemons of Chaos are also out there nowadays, and while VC changed the face of warhammer tournament play, DE and DoC have started cutting in on their slice of the pie.
Now, if you want to make a friendly VC army, that's cool. It can be done. It's actually very easy to do, because Vampires aren't cheesy because of their inherent statlines (which are actually pretty weak) or because of their individual items (also not too great), but because of their ability to become the most integrated army in the game.
Basically, if you're building your list and you're saying "this unit can back up this unit, and this character will focus on these two units, and these items look good together" you're going to be making an increasingly more powerful army.
Vampire Counts are the masters of performance tuning, which is good. If you find yourself losing a battle against your friends, you can probably go in, tweak a few things, and get yourself back on top again. I hate losing, so I went straight for maxing-out the list. That way I never waste a cent on "friendly" units, just to turn around and replace them to keep winning.
Last friendly tourney I went to, there were 3 vamp players including me. I used a fluff army and lost of course. The other two vamp players used cheese armies. All Skeles with 2 corpse carts w/ balefire. All heros and Lords had Lord of the Dead. 20 Grave Guard with Drakenhof Banner. 6 wraiths. Both of them had the same army. It was dejevue. Of course one got 1st place the other one got 3rd. The Daemon player came in 2nd.
All in all. VC's are definitely a cheese army. But then again. That's what GW intended in the first place otherwise they wouldn't have done it that way.
Easiest way to keep people from being put off is to ease up on power dice. Basically the two ways is to avoid mster of the dark arts and 3 supporting vamps with dark acolyte.
Other thing people tend not to like is a overpowered unit of grave guard or blood knights, though these really do soak up a lot of points in smaller games.
EDIT: I've thought a little more on the subject. Like the advice I give most people, is find a theme and go for it (I do not give advice for tournament lists). The five bloodlines are a good palce to start. If there's a certain aspect you love about the undead more than anything else, go for it. A Blood Knights themed force will be lacking in magic, a Necrach in a solid punch, Carstein will normally be all-rounded and not overwhelming in any one aspect, etc.
Last edited by daelrog; October 19th, 2009 at 05:34.
I am heading off to the Peace Corps. It is bery likely I will not be back. Good luck to all of you endeavors.
what's also a gaming loop hole (i see it as a loop hole cuz it doesn't make sense) that can be quite handy in a tournament is having that necro on a cart join a unit. Sense its US4 it cannot be picked out and still beenfits from look out sir rolls.
unless your doing a points denial 100+ zombie (in one unit) army, zombies aren't very competitive to start with in general (unless you use it to fill core to spam a uber-unit) so I don't think you'll have a problem.
Some players just inherently hate vampires, I like playing against them the most because they become so irrational that its like they just failed their terror test at the beginning of the game.
Most Notable Achievements:
Killed a Revenant Titan in one shot.
Killed 900 pts worth of Blood Angels in 2 turns while only loosing 4 pts.
How is mounting a necro on a corpse cart and having it join a unit a loop hole? seems like it was designed so that it could do it.
I too have played against people who fail their fear/terror test before the dice have started to roll.
They complain about any models risen in the first half and how they may as well just give up. If I convince them to keep trying then in the last 2-3 turns when combat really begins they again are somehow surprised that they are able to kill so many zombies/skeletons and how it was such a close game.
There is also the players that like to just fight head on which is great for VC as we will just about always win battles of attrition. The thing some players never grasp is that you may have to fight VC a little different than the next army.
I think its these 2 types of players that would complain the most about VC regardless of army composition.
Then we have VC players creating deathstar units which are both uber strong and weak. Depending on who your fighting you will walk all over them or get trounced. These are not balanced lists and don't represent VC just any other army book that cheeses out on something does not represent their army book.
VC is about synergy and for VC to win they need to make use of this, there is no one component that works particularly well without support. Using the synergy is not cheesy it simple smart.
thanks for that apbevan.
I am a fledgling vamp, and after reading alot about how cheesy VC was, its hard not to be discouraged, but really, i am sure you could make any army as cheesy as VC is so considered to be. i was looking for ways to play freindly fun games without the gamer animosity just because i chose VC.
i guess some people are so hellbent winning, what ever the cost, which takes away from the game as a whole.
thanks again for the tips.
Vampire counts are only cheesy if youve got 10+ PD. If you go around a meele one with lets say 5-8 PD then it will be fun to play againts. I find magic to be the only downfall for Cheese in fantasy as goes with the top players(dark elves, demons, and vampire)