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Ok, I'm new to VC and I've faced off against some demons the other day. He used Tzeentch and had a demon lord with quite a few flamers and some heralds. This of course means he dominates in shooting as VC is very limited on that. On top of the shooting, he had tons of PD and DD. VC magic is nice but it is designed to be more for myself rather than be an offensive or defensive type. The best I can hope for is IF by rolling two 6's, but my odds are not that great. He just could dispell most of everything I have. Any ideas on how to contend with the magic issue and how to get to him without just decimating all of my guys. That lord is a flyer so getting him is a huge problem and he is worth like almost 600 pts to him but seems to be worth having him fielded. His magic is as deadly as the rest of his army. I just can't seem to find anything that would work tactically. I was fielding two groups of 10 ghouls, a group of skellies, a unit of black knights, a unit of blood knights, a corpse cart and some vamps and a vamp lord. Lord and BSB vamp were in the blood knight group and they did all right, but I couldn't get anything to really work like I would hope it would. Any ideas on a specific list or tactics would be appreciated. I'm willing to try anything for a list. I've only played VC in three battles so I haven't explored everything they have to offer.
Alright, the first thing you should shoot for with beating daemons, is getting ranks. DoC have very expensive core, and VC can outnumber them, if your static combat resolution can let you win a battle, he will take wounds. Shoot for high CR, and you should see an increase in efficienty.
Since you seem to be playing magic heavy, Consider some balefire corpse carts, their aoe magic suppression could really throw a wrench in your opponent's casting. Also a scroll-caddy necromancer might not hurt.
Spread your vampires out a bit more. Yes one giant super unit of blood knights is fun, but can get you in trouble as far as supporting your army.
Black Knights may be a great counter to his lord of change, run through terrain and charge from an angle they have a harder time defending, a Wight King with lance, on a barded steed can give that unit some extra punch to smash through the enemy's defenses and bring it down.
Ethereal units are a crap-shoot against daemons, as most of their attacks and abilities are magical.
Skeletons or ghouls are both fine, just make sure you take a LOT of one of them. You can't rely on your fear/terror to cause daemons to run, so outnumber the daylights out of them.
Consider posting your list, and models and I can help more, hard to do here with the huge variety of vampire gear/abilities.
Those ideas make perfect sense. Here is a preliminary list that I drew up.
20 zombies (tar pit?)
15 skellies (banner, champ and musician)
15 skellies (banner, champ)
13 Blood Knights (Kastellan, Blood Keep banner, musician)
7 Black Knights (champ, Banner of Barrows, musician)
level 3 Lord on nightmare w/
book of Arkahn
(planned on him being in the blood knights)
Vamp (Battle Standard Bearer) on nightmare w/
avatar of death
(putting him in blood knights)
Vamp on nightmare w/
sceptre of noirot
avatar of death
I was planning on this final vamp being in the black knights but I realize this takes their ethereal like movement away because he does not have it. And I obviously made my blood knights the anchor of the army. I actually made this list before I read your response, but if you want to give me some much needed changes before I go and screw this all up... then I would not mind at all These games are friendly as I play my best friend most of the time so anything will be fine.
I do find myself becoming frustrated playing WH being that I consider myself fairly smart and tactically what I do in games would make sense in the real world of combat (manuevering on flanks, strong centers, hit from the back) but I seem to bring into play some very weak armies (i.e. high elves, dark elves, and my first army... the brets). I'm trying to find an army that does not have to fail leadership tests so that is why I'm looking at VC. I cannot tell you the luck I have on leadership tests. I've gone through so many dice because I cannot pass the simple hard to fail rolls. I mean HE on an 8 or a 9 with the general close by and I fail 5 out of 6 every time... ya... that hurts. I've lost more battles because I've been running off of the table. Anyways, sorry to drag on, but any assistance is appreciated.
OH jeebus that is a gigantic unit of blood knights. No wonder you had so much trouble.
I'd go with 9 knights MAX. You won't need as many numbers in that unit, as you can raise fallen models. Optimally take 6 Blood Knights and add a vampire, then run it in a 7-wide formation to get the maximum number of attacks.
Actually, as you're obviously playing 2k, split your blood knights into two units. This way they have some flexibility. You can't be two places at once with a giant super unit, but you can be two places at once with a pair of super units.
Having your third vampire sit in back with Lord of Knight, Dark acolyte and some armor, then sceptre de noirot, wouldn't hurt. That way you can bulk up your skeletons and zombies from the rear, whilst your two other vampires galavant around with their blood knight retinues. 4 knights and a lord, then 4-5 knights and a hero should still be rather vicious units. This also keeps your skeletons marching without slowing down your knights.
Having zombies to tarpit is a good start as well, use them to screen your army (make a 10-15 wide unit to soak shooting) then form them up so they are out of the way of your Knights.
Use the black knights to engage skirmishers and other units that your opponent may try to distract your force with.
DoC can thrive on Super Units like that. As has been said, spread the risk a bit and try to attack from several directions at once. Like it is for VC, combat res is a killer for DoC.
If you can swing into flanks, you'll do some serious damage that they likely won't recover from. And if he's mostly tzeentch, he doesn't stand much of a chance in a war of attrition.
Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.Originally Posted by amishcellphone
You have 73 models in that army, 20 of those are cavalry, and it looks like most of the points are wrapped up in the Blood Knights. Also, you have only purchased 3 characters. By placing so many points into your Blood Knights, you risk that unit to volley of magic that will be coming its way. The downside to this is, if you lose the unit, you will have nothing left on the table that will have any hope of carrying the day. Being a Cav based army, you will have trouble replacing any losses to a large magic phase because of only being able to replace one model at a time with a successful IoN cast. Alas, all is not lost, but your list needs to get into the thick of it quickly if these are the only models that you own.
Against a "caster" type demon army, you will need to:
1. Screen your army with zombies, bats swarms, or dire wolves to limit the amount of magic your opponent can land on your best units.
2. Mitigate the amount of successful casting that you opponent can muster via corpse carts with balefire, and, or a Black Coach/dispel scrolls/ Skull Staff.
3. With a list such as yours, you will need to get into combat quickly. Tzeentch magic has only one spell, I think, that can be used in hand to hand combat.
4. Use more core choices with a larger casting pool. Make it obvious that he will not change out by Bolt of Changing at 3 or 4 dice per cast to kill on average 7 models. Build big units of infantry and IoN the losses back at one casting die versus his 3 or 4.
Wow, these responses are great! I proxy the models I don't have as it is the cheapest way to realize if I want to invest fully into the vampire army. I'll split those blood knights up and I was thinking of using screening units like the bats or the wolves. I use those harpies in the same way with my DE.
I think my biggest fear is the fact that he has so many power dice. Couple that with high amounts of dispel dice and I know it is difficult for me to pull off any IoN. But, one is all I need to really replenish those core units. 2500 is the size we typically play with so I have that sort of room to negotiate with.
And here is a thought. Would giving that third vamp the helm of commandant assist me better than the scepter or noirot in the fact that I could give my skellies, ghouls or what have you I much better chance at hitting? Or would it just make more sense to be able to rez more zombies for numbers sake?
I have always found the helm more useful than the scepter, the scepter is only helpful in raising new units it dosn't give the bonus to zombies when using ion