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I've had my vampires for six months now and am finally getting the hang of them. Going on 14 straight wins (bows). However, one of the guys I play most often runs WoC and I can never seem to win. I usually lose or its a very close draw. Just wondering how you VC masters deal with these tin cans of anger.
The biggest problem Im finding is that the few wounds that manage to get around his WS and Toughness, are negated by his -19 AS (sarcasm).
He likes to run a WoC 'shooting' list. 3 sorcerers on discs, flying around spamming flickering fire with two hell cannons. Any character that isnt in a unit is usually toast by turn 2, making it difficult to pack the helm of commandment.
This list also includes a unit of Knights which are no problem with zombie summoning and his frenzy, but his block of warriors always seems to stick around.
Any tips would be appreciated as he always gets this little grin when he obliterates something and I'd love to see it turned into a pout.
I hope you don't continually feed his knights 50vp. Using zombies to lure the knights away should only be done if the alternative would be worse. Using zombies to to tarpit(requires lots of dice) or lure the knights so that you can flank charge them is a different story.
you should have no problems using helm of command by keeping it in a unit. WoC armies tend to be smaller so you should have an extra unit to use as support.
If Flickering fire is a problem take the Skull staff for the +1 dispel and maybe even 2 balefire carts though the carts are weak against flickering fire. The -2 to his casting roll and +1 to your dispel roll should be quite bothersome for him.
What size of units do you start with? start with at least 20 strong core so your not struggling to maintain size at the start.
Your own spells can target his characters, Gaze of Nagash, Winds of undeath and Rod of Flaming death. You could even take your lord with Forbidden lore and go Fire lore on him.
For his block of Warriors Grave Guard would be your best bet with either HW+S or GW setup. This gives you resilience, numbers and a way around his armour. With 2 Corpse carts it also means 2 more things he has to dispel when this fight begins.
Last edited by apbevan; December 2nd, 2009 at 16:33.
- Chaos Warriors can be gotten around by breaking them using fear. Remember when you take avatar of death the Vampire is also given a great weapon (strength 7!!!! shatters chariots!!!) so you can dish out a fair bit of dmg. Luckily Skeles can opt to stand firm with hand weapon and shields whilst ghouls have a natural toughness which can be used to minimise damage. Couple this with outnumber, ranks and banner you should have a fair amount.
- My normal setup for my characters is Avatar of Death and Dark Acolyte. This alone makes them fairly all round and leaves magic items free. So if you're like me and have 2 hero vampires and a necro you can stock up to 6 dispel scrolls to fight off his magic. Then couple that with corpse carts.
- Use flyers to your advantage. In 2250pts fell bats are very affordable in units of 5 and they make great screens, flankers and even keep those mages from casting spells for a turn or two.
- Against knights, killing blow would be ideal thing (grave gaurd) but because they're faster you've not much choice what they charge. However you can still bog them down with a block of infantry and a great weapon vampire. Any challenges can be met with the unit champion and can be summoned back later. Again they arn't immune to fear so static resolution gives you an advantage.
- Corpsecarts, useful for detering opposing magic. But also very useful for thinning down dispel dice with their always strike first bound spell. Combine this with Vanhels book and you a solid threat during the magic phase without spending a single power dice. The bound spell on the corpsecarts also offers you a counter to being charged, for example a great weapon vampire would be excellent against knights (thinning down incoming attacks as well as winning some res). But preferably you may want to try and vanhels some units to get the charge.
- I can't think of much about the hellcannons as they're unlike other warmachines in that you can take out the crew and you'e fine. So normal tactics of using flyers won't work. However even if you don't take them out you could still use the tactic to prevent him from shooting for the first part of the game, once you've closed in on his infantry blocks the cannons as as deadly to him as they are you given their inaccuracy. More so for him with his expensive heavy armoured warriors that cannot be ressurected.
Thats all I can think of for now but I hope it helps.
your opponent won't be able to deal with taking 2D6/S5 hits on his warrior units for too long. and a single casting will likely wipe out those pesky knights in one go since you'll cook them on 2's! (oh, and there's no armour saves allowed!)
otherwise, the suggested things like great weapon wielding vampires & grave guard work fine with a little application of danse macabre for ASF + re-rolls...
other ideas include a vampire w/hatred & dreadknight + balefire spike on a hellsteed to skewer the flank of the knights/sorcerers, or else shove some blood knights down his armoured throat!
instead, your hitty units like the grave guard should invest in banner of the barrows to negate the mark of nurgle completely.
as for the flickering fire spam, including a vamp with the skull staff or staff of sorcery can help bulk up your dispeling ability.
otherwise hunt them with a talisman of the lycni vamp w/wristbands of black gold! with 4 attacks (supplied by avatar of death's extra hand weapon) this guy will shrug off missiles and butcher those silly sorcerer's!
you could also try raising fresh units of zombies and just tarpit his casters... it won't take many, since at best the sorcerer can kill 3/turn! if you're lucky, you might even cause him to book it and cause some auto-hits!
as for the hellcannons, i have 3 simple words: Pit of Shades! wave bye-bye to that hellcannon with it's mighty I1!
also keep in mind that lore of shadow is pretty brutal when used well! you have a secondary movement spell with unseen lurker that can stack on top of a danse macbre move, shades of death for moving 'terror' about your army and steed of shadows for some cunning flight movements!
instead things like the lore of metal will fix them quick-fast, as will for example anything with S6+ attacks. just don't send any spirits since the chaos knights will butcher them in short order...
otherwise baiting them with a unit of 5 dire wolves and sending them off in towards the side table edge can take them out of the game for a good couple of turns!
hope this helps,
Thanks for the suggestions!
I've kitted out a caster lord and will probably go with Lore of Metal. I'm thinking of packing 3 units of ghouls and keeping their poison attacks hitting first with Danse or the cart if need be.
Also going with a block of GG with shields and banner of barrows with Black Knights and the banner of hatred for the flank. Hopefully the killing blows will get through.
imho ghouls are not that good against Chaos Warriors or Knights as they have good armour. The extra 2 CR you can get from skeletons w magic banner would be more helpful and against S4 attacks you still get a 5+ As on the front.
Ghouls are great against marauders and the various other monsters so if he has those then they are a great pick.
The ghouls choice will be a little bit cheaper and you will be scoring more wounds before armour save so as usual the difference between the 2 choices is pretty minimal.
Last edited by apbevan; December 3rd, 2009 at 19:06.
Another idea to add to what good advice others have said a WK, sword of kings, nightshroud in a GG unit with banner of barrows can make for a nasty challenger. Also i did not want you to forget your own knights. your skellies/GG can hold the CW and your own BG with a vamp or dare I say BK slamming into a flank can cause enough losses to to win by size and fear.
"Ah, but the truth is like an expensive whore, Jerek. She comes in many dresses and will bend over for any with the money to pamper her." ~ Konrad von Carstein
One thing. If you tweak your army for this guy he is probably doing the same against you. This means Mark of Slaanesh up the ying yang. If you are not familiar with it he is what it does.
"unit is Immune to FEAR and Terror"
So this guy knows you play an all fear causing army so MoS is an incredibly easy way to counter that and at 5-10 points for units (5 for any marauders, 10 for everything else) its the cheapest mark that is well worth its points. And anything that can't have MoS already causes fear or terror.
Yes you should out number him with nearly all your units as they are cheaper than anything he can field but don't go in thinking having 30 models to his 15 is gonna mean an instant win with fear.
Stick to the other anti magic and CC monsters to turn the tables on this guy.
Repainting Orks not sure how many points yet
Warriors of Chaos shelved until further notice