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After reading some of the discussions regarding how 8th edition effects us, I just wanted to ask a few questions regarding skeletons.
It now seems that in larger lists the common practice is going to be using a horde unit and a smaller, but still sizeable unit. How many skeletons should be in either of these units. Are spears required for the smaller unit as well? If so are we looking at 5 x 5, 6 x 4, or even 6 x 5? Which of these units should harbour a caster lord if one is taken and which, if any, should have a combat character?
Thanks in advance for any responses.
Remember, fight like an ork, but never dance like one. Unless thats your thing.
The Immortal Sons of Change (VC): 3-1-1
I personally think that a unit of 50 (10x5)for spear skeles. And at least a 6x5 unit for HW/Shield skeles (maybe spear skeles). I also am starting to question the point of any of the raising powers (i.e. Lord of the Dead) since we will no longer be casting IoN on one die very often, and in combat we will be dying at rates faster than bringing them back so our emphasis will be on maintaining what we have instead of beefing up a unit above starting. I think that undead units fielded in less than 30's will be susceptible to CR crumbling and quick death. Remember you nee to think in the framework of 2 attack phases/1 rebuilding magic phase. Also I have a feeling the first rounds PD will hopefully be trying to power our uber-Black Coach.
Perhaps we need to think a little more like Empire detachments and have little 5x3 or 6x3 squads of HW/Sh skeles for flankers. The problem with that is efficiency, since empire core costs about 2 points less per model, with greater combat prowess. Still, It is food for thought.
I think zombies would fit the role perfectly as they are half the points cost of a skeleton.
If a squad of elite warriors(lizardmen,dwarfs,chaos) charged you and you lose by say 3, you could lose 24pts of skeletons or 12pts of zombies.
Zombies are a efficient way of dealing with any threat as they will sit there in combat for 3-4 turns and earn there points back.
but with zombies, you'll lose combat by much more, since they're much more fragile and much less deadly, and they can't have a character.
Anyway, this isn't a unit choice thread, it's a unit formation thread. Stay on topic.
Just a note on the framework of rounds of combat and rebuilding. Now that the charge is mostly a moot point for our core troops, I do not think I will be charging anything too dangerous on my turn (with core troops anyways) The reason behind this is if I charge in and lose (regardless of that mighty +1 for charging) you will suffer 2 rounds of combat before replenishing your troops. If you can however just march up to your opponent and let him charge you, you will only suffer 1 round of combat, and get to replenish right after that.
Timing is key, you can often report the engagement to turn 5 instead of turn 4, you will definitely be in better shape. Avoiding taking multiple back to back rounds of combat will make a big difference in your need to replenish your troops.
If all else fails, prepare for a 2/1 ratio as mentioned above.
I don't think undead core should start below 30 (and should only start at 30 if you plan on beefing them up). They are too crappy and expensive compared to other core, they're strength lies in their ability to outlast w/unbreakable and res's.
also now that we have to spend 25% on core, I think 1-2 large units will be much more beneficial than multiple smaller units. Allows you to focus your invo's, magic banners and points. Plus with their low I a smaller unit may not be able to strike back at all.
Most Notable Achievements:
Killed a Revenant Titan in one shot.
Killed 900 pts worth of Blood Angels in 2 turns while only loosing 4 pts.
OK, so here is some food for thought,
The Corpse Cart can join units of skeletons (or ghouls) and can be placed anywhere within the unit. Does it fill up rank and space within the unit? If so, it would be much easier to reach horde status (if that is a goal) and would also give the unit d6 extra attacks due to Thunderstomp and it's own 2d6 attacks. Although these attacks are normally pathetic, we all know that we should be seeing somme augmenting coming through the Lores of Light (WS 10, I 10, Anyone?) and the Lore of Beasts. It also adds some extra toughness to the unit as enemies may start to target it if your augmenting is going well. Plus it is always nice to have neverending scrub champions to keep challenges off of your necromancer (if you have him on the cart). I'm seriously considering trying this out on my skeletal units, horde sized and smaller to see if this has much benefit. I'd be interested on hearing others thought and opinions on this.
Also, although this edition has not been particularly kind to the Vampire Counts, I think we can all agree that, while other armies risk a lot by putting such a tremendous amount of points into a horde unit that could be removed with some poor dice rolling, we VC's don't have to worry about that, and they must take our hordes out man by man and sometimes they have to kill the same man over and over again...which is a beautiful thing. Still the investment for a horde unit of spear skeles at 40 models w/command is almost 400 pts, which is no small amount, but this amount would hopefully be able to weather a band round of magic and still be alive for the next chance for some IoN love.
if your saying we can use lore of beasts or life we can't so don't worry about the aug. AND they say once a spell is taken it can't be re-taken, once all the spells have been chosen the wizard looses his spells. SO too much magic and all you'll have if IoN, so to me without having the Vanhel's dance i think the use of more defense with skellies and zombies if a must. and if that's the case i say go big with units w/ spears so you can get 4 ranks into the fight, corpse cart giving 1st strike and cross your fingers. finally a horde is only good fighting a horde, if my 10 wide rank fights a 5 wide rank at most i only get 7 hits per rank. this takes away 12 hits so in essence by them having a smaller rank size it nullifies the rank bonus from having a horde.
Army-Win-Loss-Draw-Massacre/Dark Elves-18-2-0-15/Wood Elves-3-1-0-1/Lizardmen-2-2-0-1/Vampire Counts-2-3-1-1
Clearly stated in FAQ - "The Corpse Cart counts as a monster in all regards, and therefore has the Thunderstomp special rule". Not sure about base size, will have to look at that as well. In no means was this a definite idea, just thoughts in progress, I'm sure there will be flaws with the thinking.
Forbidden Lore - gives our Vamps access to all the Lores except Life and I was talking about the augmentation of the Lore of Light. I'm at a loss for why you don't think we can take those lores. In fact, I expect to see Vampires with Forbidden Lore all over the place. Vanhel's can be taken by a necro.