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I thought a seperate thread would be a lot more convenient and easier to read.
Which spells are good and why?
Please post in the format of:
Lore of beasts: Wyssand's Wilform
Why: This is easy to cast and greatly increases the survivability of our troops.
Lore of Beast:
Wyssand's Wilfdform - great augment spell for your core
Pann's Impenetrable Pelt - Augment spell to make your T4 vamp heros more surviable, can effect multiple heros
Svage Beast of Horros - Augment spell that can effect multiple characters, Great wtih Red Fury
Amber Spear - possible S10 Multi-Wound spell
Transformation of Kadon - Change a vampire hero into a monster
Lore of Light: Can give you an edge against a Daemon or Undead army
Pha's Protection - Augment to make your units harder to hit, can effect multiple units
Speed of Light - Augment spells that negates your skeletons weakness WS10, I10, can effect multiple units
Lore of Death - Can cast spells and get PD back to cast IoN
Spirit Leech and Caress of Laniph - Sniper spells
Soulblight - Good Hex spell that can affect all enemies within 24"
Doom and Darkness - Ld mod to help with terror or fear
The Purple Sun of Xeres...
This all said I think magic has become a lot more dangerous with the risk of IF/Miscasting with your lord or facing a Feedback scroll or Hex scroll during combat.
On a good magic phase I will get the chance to cast 1 good spell and 2 Necromantic spells or 4-6 Necromantic spells
Last edited by apbevan; July 19th, 2010 at 18:14.
By the way, everyone who talks about magic talks about how scary it is to get miscasts now, but miscasts are no more common on double sixes than they were on double ones, and despite the miscast table looking super scary, I've yet to see any miscasts that were really all that big a deal (and I've seen a bunch of heavy magic armies playing a lot of games). Most wizards these days are either cheap little throw-away guys, so who cares if they get their big spell off irresistably then explode, or they're bad-a mofos and don't care about the miscast. Still have yet to see anyone just straight-up die to it.
And I wouldn't be all that worried about a Hex scroll or Feedback scroll. I can't see someone bothering to spend 50 points of magic items on a wizard and give up the chance to dispell something to have a 50% chance (or maybe only 33% chance) of turning your lord into a frog, or maybe dealing a wound or two. The situations where you catch a caster in combat with the frog scroll, or manage to nail a big-time spell with the feedback scroll, don't seem worth spending 50 points of a character alotment to do that. Maybe I'm wrong, but they seem way to gimmicky.
And in terms of those Lores, I think Beasts is fantastic. Imagine a Lord on some kind of mount with Red Fury, Forbidden Lore (Beasts), and a Dreadlance (and some protective stuff). Casts Savage Beast on himself, 7 attacks that auto-hit, at S10 (!!!), that cause additional auto-hitting S10 attacks when they wound. That's a beating. Or imagine tossing it on a Frenzied Konrad...everyone and their brother seems to be playing Monstrous Infantry now (half the lists on Dakka lately are Ogres)...god forbid Konrad runs into a unit of Ogres with 8 attacks, rerolling misses, S8, every unsaved wound doubles to 2, and every wound caused gives another attack. He'll kill them all, single-handedly.
I agree, as long as the vampire is in a unit of 10 behind the lines its not too bad. Although the only game I've had with vampires he miscast and died turn two followed by the orc shaman who miscast and died (which isn't as major and its also a different miscast table by the way).
Konrad is totally insane! (sorry could not resist)
Posting in a vampire thread how most casters are cheap throw away or bad mofos who don't care is a little silly. Having a 50% chance of loosing your general on the 2-4 miscast is hardly of no consequence and rolls 2-7 cause S10 hits of varying degrees. a Roll of 8-9 can put a wound on all your casters and 10-12 can reduce your much needed caster to a lvl 1 or even 0, but of course if your a bad mofo it does not matter?
Miscasts do matter.
Feedback scroll on any caster casting a big spell will get hurt and possible killed and the amount of dice rolled means you would have had a hard time trying to dispel it anyway.
Hex Scroll at the right moment can turn your badass mofo into a squishy frog. Using your example of casting Savage Beast on you lvl 2/3 vamp lord the hex scroll for 50 points has a 50-66% chance of basically killing your 400+ point lord.
A 50% chance of losing your general on the 1/6 chance of getting 2-4 on the __% chance of miscasting (depending on how many dice you throw)...sure, I'll take those odds in exchange for casting some of the super strong spells. If you're that worried about miscasting, it means you're probably throwing quite a few dice at something (a common thing to do in 8th, it seems), which means with the Winds of Magic roll you'll probably only be casting 2-3 spells per turn, and maybe not all with the same vampire. I'll take a 1/20-1/30 chance my general might die on the 2-3 spells cast each turn gladly...for the one time every once in a while he explodes, the rest of the time he's doing great. If the small odds of him dying to a miscast scares you that much, just give him Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, and a Sword of Bloodshed and let him go to town in the combat phase. And as far as him losing wizard levels, who cares? Since we're discussing Forbidden Lore, he has 8 spells, so if he loses a couple and loses a couple of bonus points to his casting attempts, he can still do plenty with magic (and still has an amazing stat line). Unless you're unlucky enough for him to cease being a wizard (1/36 chance on a miscast if he's level 3, 0% chance if he's level 4), losing a wizard level or two is far from the end of the world, and you just got off an irresistable spell to boot.
If you want to cast with your lords, you're going to have to deal with the occasional bad outcome for miscasts. If you don't want to, don't make your lord casty. Take a Vampire hero with Forbidden lore and be done with, and then yeah, he's a throwaway basically. Cast the spell or two you want with him, maybe give him a scroll, and if he explodes so be it.
And if you ever actually get hit by a Hex Scroll, I would love to hear about it. Unless it's a situation where a list is made particularly to combat certain builds of Vampire Counts, a Hex Scroll is a terrible waste of points that could be spent elsewhere. Most people's wizards don't fight if they can avoid it, and if they get into combat they're probably going to get killed regardless of whether or not they're a frog, so all the Hex Scroll will do is take a guy after he casts and maybe make him a frog so he can't cast again until he gets a 4+. And most people's important wizards are level 4 (unlike Vamp Lords who routinely run at 2-3) so a Hex Scroll has a large chance of being a completely useless waste of 50 points. For a general take-on-all-comers army, the number of times you'll get to turn a Vamp Lord into a frog after he's piled into close combat will be miniscule compared to the number of times you just turn some random wizard in the back into a frog briefly, or fail to because they rolled under their wizard level. I'll be sure to come back and recant if I ever see a Hex Scroll used anywhere, by anybody. But I'm not seeing it when people are trying to squeeze the most they can out of their character caps.
And as for Feedback Scrolls, I'm also not seeing them being used by anyone. That's 50 points spent on sitting around hoping someone uses 6 dice to cast something with an important character, then hoping you don't roll poorly. If a Vampire Lord decides he wants to throw 6 dice at Summon Undead Horde and gets hit by a Feedback Scroll, he takes on average 2 wounds, and that's only if he's not in a unit with the Banner of Blood Keep or Drakenhoff Banner, or hasn't taken any of the different items that bestow a ward save.
If the possibility of miscasting and getting hit by one of those awful scrolls scares you that much, just kit your Vampires out for massively nasty close combat and throw around Invocations while you march into their faces. But none of them are reasons to worry about magic, or to steer clear of heavy magic armies.
In fact, the magic phase itself is the biggest argument against magic heavy armies. All the points you spend in the world don't make up for a stretch of 2-3 important turns of rolling 2-4 for the Winds of Magic.