Welcome to Librarium Online!
Hey guys been awile since i have post but these are my views on VC so far!
I got a hold of a pdf of the rulebook for about a month now, so my friends and i have been playing tons of games tring to perfect are armies. I will start off with the bad
Bad: Omg Fear, is depressing. Anyone who reads the rules feels my pain, and yes it use to be a completly op tool to win battles, now i tend to forget about it all together and with BSB in every army.
Corpse Cart Nerf: No longer join unit, and as many of you may or may not know, bound spells r not Free anymore, and cost Powerdice. I fieled 1 before and dont like how it eats up dice, and plus it doesnt count towards my core minimal pt cost, this thing will be benched.
New Parry: We ran some basic stats and test, our gravegaurd and my fav squad my skeles took a huge hit. Parry new rue gives unit 6 ward instead of +1 save when inf has hw and shield. The math isnt on your side unless enemy hitting at 7Str, the its better to take ward.
HAHA HORDES: Everyone has jumped onto the horde band wagon, which means the most OP spell of any lore is ours guys. Curse of Ages. The first couple of games, this spelled destoryed armies. Im not talking about a squad, i mean armies. The new remains in play rules allow you to cast it, and keep casting other spells. Only 1 curse per vamp but now the can cast it and keep going!
25% heros: Some say bad, i say good. Realisticly, i only fielded 3-4 vamps in my army as support. I can still field that much with the 25%, not fully equiped, but there. However each army i play, i put 3 necs in just for spell spam so my 2 camps and lord can go bonkers and cast their hearts out.
Zombies, Zombies, and Zombies: Our lore is so easy to cast with the new spells, i have been making zombie walls to the max. The new rules also allow you to fight with 2 ranks using supporting attacks, and they always get attacks back since you take models off the back now. This means my crappy zombies get to take swings at the enemy.
Basic notes i came across:
Our vampire lore is so op, Curse of ages, wind of undeath are the 2 most op spells and my friends r hating them. Dont bother with the lores and 15+ spells when we have cheap spells that work!
Necs are usuful know so our Vamps dont waste time boosting guys, just let the nec do it.
Have fun, and hop this helps!
Last edited by ZombieCancer; July 23rd, 2010 at 05:07.
Good Luck and have fun!
8th Ed WOOT
I'm afraid you are not using the new magic rules correctly. As for the Curse...too bad only one Vamp can have it (more like one curse per army, not per vampire)...so when you start playing your spells properly it will be far less OP, this is the same with Raise Dead and Winds of Undeath. The only exception are your necros who actually pay for their spells, so you can have multi Raise Dead and multi Van Hels but that is it, and only through Necromancer use.
The only thing I am unsure of is if Forbidden Lore counts as paying for spells, so you may be able to get multiple Winds or Curse if you have two vampires with Forbidden Lore:Lore of the Vampire
First i'am very confused by your reply. I think you were unclear or have not read the rules.
I quote" Each wizard knows spells equal to his level randomly determined before the battle." Page 28 of the 8th ed rulebook. This means my vampires who randomly get curse can cast it. Each wizard can attempt to cast each spell once, excpt for Nec spells which can be cast multiply times. My lord usually has Forbidden Lore and usually 1 of my support vampires gets curse so 2/3 of my vampires get curse total. Then i can attempt to cast it once per vampire with a total of 2.
It seems to me you and your friends got magic wrong or maybe you miread my text or was very unclear in your answer but if you think you get 1 Curse of years per army, i would re read magic if i were you.
Last edited by ZombieCancer; July 23rd, 2010 at 23:44.
Good Luck and have fun!
8th Ed WOOT
Please read pg 490 of rulebook (8th ed.)...rules for spell generation
(maybe not in your pdf)
Also, I quote:
"...if you roll a spell twice (whether for the same Wizard or for a different Wizard in the army) you must normally replace the duplicate spell with another of your choice from the same Lore. If you cannot, because all other spells have already been taken by other Wizards, for example, then this extra spell slot is lost."
Also, earlier on the page...
"Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exception are where a spell is not generated randomly..."
Hope this clears up the rules for you...btw, I have read and reread the rules so don't automatically assume the other person is wrong, but since this is pretty far into the rulebook I can expect to see many people not playing this rule correctly for awhile.
You can however circumvent this rule by taking Forbidden Lore with 1 Vampire and hopefully randomy rolling it with another...or by purchasing Forbidden Lore with each of your vampires, signifying Lore of Vampire.
I see in your second post that you clarify having Forbidden Lore on your Vampire Lord so your initial statements are plausible...but I was not assuming Forbidden Lore, becuase it is rarely used to learn Lore of the Vampire. Also, you hinted at rolling randomly for all of your Vampires, but even if you rolled Curse of Years twice, only one Vampire would get the spell.
I agree that some of the spells in the Lore are good however, with our core units being so dismally poor, I can't imagine not playing with Lore of Light or Beasts for proper support.
I am leery about your zombie walls. Sure, we get to attack back but we're gonna be hit by sooo many attacks and crumble faster than before, they just don't seem sustainable to me. However, add in Lore of Light and make them WS10, they become a little more interesting, but their strength is so bad you won't wound much, and I would still guess you'd lose combat against any reasonable core unit, albeit by less.
Last edited by D'yanoi; July 24th, 2010 at 07:12.
Thank you so much for clairifying it for me, i appreicate it. I will deffently go back and read those rules, as i said before pdf i tend to skip some things reading 200+ pages on screen. This is a great rule to learn and i agree it is a rule most ppl will look over. The game we played where i double was 4k vs 4k, so we played correctly due both wizards were giving Forbidden Lore.
Once again thank you for clairifing and stating rules and page, Rep
Good Luck and have fun!
8th Ed WOOT
Um VC look like they've been hit very hard in the new rules, i mean consider this:
No matter how many points you'll play, your going to get 2D6 power dice + a 1/6 chance of getting an extra dice per wizard. so really, not many power dice at all. This is all fine and good for smaller games, but hit 3-5k and your in big trouble, as 6-7 power dice isnt nearly close enough to keep your army on the table. half the army isnt strong enough to take on the enemy alone, they need magic support and lots of it, and under the new rules i cannot see this working.
fear has been compromised, now we cant autobreak or make expensive units flee, there are a few more ways to get around it, and if your zombies, the new fear rules helps very little as you're WS 1 anyway.
hordes have given cheap poor infantry a boost now, but tbh zombies still suck and skellies are really expensive for their combat abilities compared to say, empire swordsmen. so i say we break even here.
now everything has a massive increase to offensive capability, with comparably small increases to defence, our army will drop faster, and as said above, raising it back is less effective. this means the VC army will actually die rather quickly compared to the last ed. VC always had more fragile troops to balance the potential of bringing them back.
all other armies can make use of the new BSB rules, of steadfast, of templates and cannons and bowmen firing in extra ranks etc and we kinda cant
the only water i can draw from the 8th ed well is that, being a pretty much all combat army we have recieved a bonus in the ways of greatly increased charge ranges
Please Please PLEASE somebody help me out, i must have missed something ><"
Riche have you actually played any games with VC in 8th yet? What kind of list did you play in 7th?
I personally never played a raise heavy VC list so the new magic only affects me when I roll really low like 3.
"the VC army will actually die rather quickly" hah try that line on an empire or O&G army and see what kind of sympathy you get. Just because VC in 7th could grow larger while fighting does not mean we can't win now. We can still replenish losses.
Comparing swordsmen to skeletons by themselves seems silly as both sides have different tricks and tactics for their core, if VC had raisable swordsmen then they would be equal right?
Yes the living now benefits greatly from steadfast but if your used to outnumbering them then they should not be getting steadfast right? Can't really complain about them gaining steadfast and us loosing auto breaks at the same time.
Vampire can run supporting characters with tricks like the Helm granting WS 6, 7 or even 10 to a unit which makes a big difference and we can still raise our losses and MotBA can help us generate more PD. People also talk about using Necro's as 1 die IoN's for those that are really attached to it.
Vampires can still be run as some of the best combat characters.
Last edited by apbevan; July 26th, 2010 at 23:01.
Well I for the most part agree with Rich in terms of keeping army up. I have played 3 games above 4k pts and it gets very hard to keep your army up. But times have changed, you need to adapt to the new rules and create new armies. YOur oppoents also have way less despell dice. In all the games i play 2 Vamp lords given Forbidden Lore and Black arts. This allows them to cast Wind of undeath twice per turn and a curse of years if needed. Also i am know feilding vampires who can fight. Due to change in magic, i dont need to make every vampire wiz 2 to have caster army. You just need 1 or 2 strong casters then field combat heros.
The best part is each vamp is a wizard so each turn my 2 strong vamps get +4 dice total for black arts, then i roll 6d6-8d6 for extra dice. This doesnt even count the winds of magic yet. The magic is still there, but you need to change how you use it.
The one thing i love//hate, Being a true Skeleton Fan, never liking ghouls too much but respected them due to there good stats. I have come to the conclusion that 8Th Ghouls are crap worthless, i mean my zombies did almost as well. Every game there lack of Full command kills me. No free reform from musician, no +1 Standard, uug there so bad. Every army i play they just owned my ghouls and every game my blocks of 25skels stood strong. A few games they were able to hold and with another flank beat Grail Knights and Chaos Knights.!!! My ghouls couldnt even beat the basic questing knights with a dansel,... on the flank.
Last thing is, yes our core is extreamly overpriced now with fear being forgettable worthless. The good news is , New codex has been announce
Last edited by ZombieCancer; July 27th, 2010 at 00:16.
Good Luck and have fun!
8th Ed WOOT
I play 90% of my games at 2250 and have not had a chance to play 3k+ in 8th yet. This could definitely explain our difference in opinions.
Ghouls have their place and are miles better than zombies but our 3 main core should all be used differently. I personally prefer the tactical flexibility of having at least one unit of Skeletons and one unit of Ghouls which is how I have most of my lists, however sometimes one or the other does not fit the play style of the list and should not be used.
Ghouls because of their poison is better vs monsters like steggadons and giants while still being able to take on regular RnF with their extra attacks and 4 toughness.