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Been looking through alot of vamp lists people have made and im seeing a pattern emerge here. Whats up with all these magic heavy lords at Lvl 4 and barely a vamp who can kick but in the armies??
If anyone could give some response to how you intend playing Vampire Counts without any decent close combat lord please do. My armies never have anyone over lvl 2 and im wondering if people intend to win through sheer weight of numbers?
The main reason for having a l4 lord is the new magic rules. It's to get that all important +4 to dispel. Mind you, a magic lord isnt a slouch in combat either. But I personally field wight lord fighters and leave the magic to my vamp lord and his underling.
As for running with no combat lord, attrition is the main focus of the vampires list. We pay through the nose for our core units due to the old fear rules meaning we have to get the most from them. To do this a few IoN here and there will replenish the units back to starting numbers. however your opponent's unit would have lost models. eventually these core units will have more ranks and then break the opponent, even if not as sure fire as last edition.
For combat punch, I find that grave guard and black knights do enough in that department, not to mention a black coach and a couple of varghulfs for the stomp, and the lack of combat lord isnt noticed so much
See what your getting at, though i still get the creeps when that chaos lord comes rolling up on his Behemoth. Just wondering then, if your going with a ION tactic on you skeletons, if it best to go 1 lvl 4 lord and maybe a necro and then close combat vamps, or should you go all out magic? This being giving your smaller vamps lvl 2 and Lord of the dead f.ex
Havn't tried going a magic heavy build in the new edition because i havn't figured out the right balance between keeping my soldiers alive and still having enough to kick their teeth in with my punchy stuff. And the winds of magic not being your best friend at times.
I would go 1 level 4 lord with a level 2 underling and a couple of l1 necros (just in case). All out magic is too much overkill i think, though i would certainly use one MotBA for the +2 dice on bad rounds.
As for the right balance, I would just make sure you take grave guard and a varghulf or something like that and then take a solid core. No need for lord of death as it isnt a problem being restricted by max unit size. In fact it can stop you going over board sometimes with IoN.
For chaos lord on juggernought, he's going to mince anything he touches. So give him a meat shield of 50+ zombies (insert evil laugh here). Keep raising the unit to insance proportions each turn and watch the lord be bogged down in a combat he can't escape. Not foolproof but nothing ever is.
i'm against magic lords
just take a 150 point vamp with a lore and you have a complete lore
CC lords are better
you can take thing like this with CC
vampire lord 365 points
Sword of Bloodshed
2+ armor save
7 strenght 5 attacks with reroll to miss 0.o
fighty lords are all well and good, but they'e only really an option when you can bring 2 lords to the table... combat lords tend to die in the end, which is terrible if it's your general! so magic heavy lords are simply tactically better since they're alot easier to protect, while still supporting your army.
plus, undead will become quite fearsome once you start throwing around spells like speed of light and/or birona's timewarp with a +3/4 to cast!!! or else buffing your skellie hoard upto S/T4 with wildform and suchlike...
besides, wight kings may have lower WS/I, but they're just as tough as vamp lords, and have 3 wounds plus killing blow to boot! thus, they make the better fighty characters since point for point, they do it just as effectively for half or less the cost of a vampire!
one of my favourite load-outs for a character hunting wight king is; extra hand weapon, helm of discord, other trickster's pendant. he sits right beside my lord who has aura of dark majesty, so any characters are at -1 on their Ld test for the helm, then they're staring down 4 KB attacks and having to re-roll any successful ward saves!!! apply a buff spell to the unit, and this guy will take down even chaos lords!
comparing vamp lords with vamps (magic)
extra magic level
Forbidden lore (life)
Forbidden lore (shadow)
this the same only you get 2 times as many spells for less points (and you dont waste your lord points value)
and WHAT do you have with beast lore
only good spell is Kadon
rest just blows cus the very high casting values
and for my wight king char hunter
Sword of Kings
if he gets vanhell's and boosted to ws7 (helm if commandant) he could kill anything from unit champions to tooled up chaos lords
and what's about the "so magic heavy lords are simply tactically better"
ARE YOU G@Y? (dont lie)
they are not easier to protect due the fact they got NO armour (and they can't even take armour) and if you have done it good you get a 1+/2+ as with a 4+ regen save (drakenhoff) and a 2+ ward save vs flaming
what do you get with your mage
a 4+ regen without flaming resistance
aka a very very dead lord
and i bet you like a tooled up mannfred (+6 to cast and dispel?) even if he costs wel over 600 points and will be the target of everyone who can get his hands on:
1. hand weapons
4. great weapons
5. throwing axes
7. extra hand weapons
8. morning stars
9. throwing weapons
11. throwing weapons
20. stone throwers
21. flame cannons
22. bolt throwers
23. shadow lore
24. fire lore
25. light lore
26. life lore
27. death lore
28. beast lore
29. heaven lore
30. metal lore
31. race specific lore
that's about it...................
Last edited by Lokyar; November 7th, 2010 at 14:22.
wow... just wow. there's no need for acting like a two-year-old you know... my tactics are different from yours, that's all. i find that caster lords are far easier to protect, and they do more overall for my army!
the OP was simply wondering why it seems like 99.9% of lord builds foucs so heavily on magic compared to fighting.
as for your comments;
- i don't ever take manny cause he sucks... generic lord builds are far nastier.
- lore of beasts had two very handy spells, namely wyssan's wildform, (please come fighty my S5/T5 grave guard!) and savage beast of horros which add's bigtime to any character's strength and attacks. they're both reletively safe to cast, even with a Lv1 wizard... (i'd only try for the area of effect with a Lv4, which i hardly ever use anyways...)
plus, there's some handy attack/debuff spells like amber spear and curse of anraheir. transformation is a garbage spell since anyone with half a brain can easily counter it... (ie: feedback scroll, dispel in their turn etc...)
caster lords are far easier to protect because they don't need to be at the front of your army! they hide in a bunker unit behind your heavier graveguard/hoard unit and then have fun tossing about buffs and debuffs... they only lose out on magic missiles and some direct damage spells.
plus, you most certainly can give vamps armour and cast spells. (as reading our army book will show you). besides, a high armour save isn't nessessary. wards work better than armour, or else simply making your lord hard to hit to begin with is also an equal defence... solid placement in your unit will help cut down on the number of attacks that can be directed at your lord too. (and of corse, sending a wight king or unit champ to answer all those pesky challenges!)
take a look at this set-up for a caster lord;
Level 3 wizard, Forbidden Lore (Light), Aura of Dark Majesty. Nightshroud, Warrior Bane, Staff of Damnation, Gem of Blood.
so, she's protected initially by my wight king and thus, can simply ignore any challenges beyond one your two bretonnian tricks. plus, she always goes first (no need for an ASF spell), deducts an attack for every wound she inflicts and can rebound the first wound she suffers. plus, she (and her unit) can fight in the magic phase too!
sure it's not as surefire as having a 1+/4+ or such, but she's still pretty hard to kill, even if you target her specifically! only rank and file stand a decent chance, and typically she's only looking at 4-6 attacks from rank and file which will then need 4's to-hit + 4's/5's to wound on average...
or else, a fairly 'standard' helm build of;
Level 3 Wizard, Hellsteed. Forbidden Lore, Dark Acolyte, insert other power. Fencer's Blades, Helm of Commandment, Wristbands of Black Gold.
so here we have a flying 3+ ward save vs all ranged attacks... again, this lord sits at the back, supporting the army with magic. they now toss about WS10! through the helm, and the choice of lore typically depends on play style. (i'd choose light since it works well for me!)
the point being, for many vamp players, magic lords simply make more tactical sense... they last longer, can easily stay out of trouble and provide far better support overall than a strait up killy lord who risks death quite readily.
please go troll elsewhere...
savage adding big time to statics??!?!?!?!?!
YOU GOT TO BE F@CK!NG KIDDING ME
IT THE WORST SPELL OF THE LORES
and about bunkers
i think you never heard of cannons....................................
and it will cost you 2 times as much to get a decent ward save, if you even have enough points (wich u wont cus u spent all your points on items)
oh and you forget the nightshroud
vamps casters cant take magic armour cus they dont have standard options
and having WB is also very very crappy
chaos lord smashes u in to pulp b4 you even raised ur arm.
and you DO know HoC, FB and WoBG is 170 points
70 points more then u are allowed to choose
and using points on FoC has no use anyways cus u will hit standard troops on 3´s anyways with WS 7
AND NO MAGIC LORDS ARE NOT A BETTER TACTICAL CHOICE HAVING NO SAVES WONT HELP AGAINST 40 HANDGUNNERS OR PEGASUS CAVELRY
Yea, vampires can always take armour as already stated, you can't take lore of life ever as a vampire and having 12 spells is just ridiculous. It might mean you have the right spell for the job but just as likely your wasting 10 odd other spells.
@OP, magic lords are definitely easier to protect, just simply because they don't need to put themselves in harm's way to do their job. People are finding combat lords just don't make their points back usually, at most they'll have 14 attacks (from red fury and +3 attacks weapon) but they can't be everywhere at once and only support the unit they're in. A magic lord can boost any unit that needs it much better than a combat lord basically. I generally run combat lords just because I like them more, and at some point in any battle I'm gonna wish he was in 2 combats at once.