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My friend and I have access to 5 armies between the two of us, and we thought it would be cool to control one force composed of two armies a peice. I'll be using my newest army for sure (Vamps), and he'll be using his largest army (WoC), and the remaining ones are up for grabs.
Long story short, I'm looking for advice on which army to choose as allies to my Vampire Counts. We're looking at 6000-7500 points, that is split somewhat evenly between the two forces. Each force has to be legal within itself, and of the two "generals", one will be chosen randomly to be the "Force Commander", who will grant his inspiring presence to both factions in a 18" radius. The rest of the details are still being worked out, but if you have any questions as to how somthing would work I'll answer to the best of my ability.
So which race would be the best allies to the Vampire Counts (List your reason please. Fluff, tactics, personal opinion, whatever)? Keep in mind that tactically it might be advantageous to take an ally simply so they aren't paired with the WoC. The availiable armies are:
Does the whole alliance apply here? Like desperate alliance and etc. Although I think all the choices you put up there are considered that. I dunno, I favor Dwarfs because of their great units and their explosive shooting.
as long a you Do not alliance with any nuetral armies or darkelves/Skaven or worse forces of order you will be fine as far as alliances go.
Just remember you only roll 2d6 for magic still and you have to share these dice between ALL the armies in the alliance
now if your all forces of destruction and there is No Darkelves / Skaven your still fine as you and your friend can Choose exactly how many dice go where for E.G
WoC + Vampire Force 2d6 rolled up 7 (4/3)
now the WoC hasnt taken any magic users so the Vamps get all the power dice
Vampire + Darkelves+WoC 4 casters(VC) 2 (DE) 0 (WoC)
becuase the dark elves are in the alliance Every turn each army rolls a dice (i belive its 4+) or the alliance gets 1 stage worse Even if only one army fails this roll going from trusted to next one down (my books are packed ready for moving home sorry if i forget a few things) this means that Even though the vamps need more of the PD and would be given such in a Full trusted alliance the dice are now split Evenly so again 2d6 rolling up 7 (5/2) this gives 2 PD to each army Including the WoC even though they have no use for them and the last 1 dice would be rolled as a D3 and given to the army that it corresponded to Vamps (1) DE(2) WoC (3) etc...
Hell an Alliance of Darkelf + Dark Elf ends up like that also DE and rats are betetr as Stand alone armies due to alliance rules for magic.
**Note you also have to spilt Dispell dice if your allince is not Trusted (as far as im aware)
I would say either of the elves tactically, they give you access to shooting and manouvrebility, plus with any of them you'll have to split power dice evenly, and dwarfs won't be able to use them so it'll be a waste. Might want a few MotBA vampires to compensate. Fluffwise I spose high elves? Dwarfs never forget and fought against Konrad and Mannfred, wood elves hate necromancers as well because of Heinrich Kemmler, and I can't think of anything specifically for high elves, and they might be arrogant enough to think they could control a vampire in an alliance
Ignoring battle brothers, trursted, and untrusted allies, Dwarfs are your strongest bet. High Ld, Tough, high WS, all making up for what your vampire units lack. they aslo benifit from not having to use your power dice meaning all the dice can go into your vamps raising, (assuming you are not rolling for vampires and high elves/wood elves seperatly). You also get extra dispel dice.
Fluff wise you are going to strugle. Only thing i can realy think of is that in the storm of chaos, an entire branch of the choas invasion that tried to enter the empire through the mountain passes and into Sylvania just "disapered". You could argue that an extremely week aliance was made between the dwarfs protecting the mountains passes to the empire, and vampires in sylvania also facing destruction at the hands of chaos should they destroy the empire. It would also give the VCs access to a mass of bodies after the battle to raise to take control of the empire themselves.
Tactics wise, it would be nice to have a couple of war machines but i wouldnt recommend a gun line. You want a balanced list with some solid blocks like iron breakers or hammerers,maybe even a nice big block of warriors with great weapons to add some punch to your force. As much as i like an anvil it may be classeda bit cheesey considering the amount of dispel dice you will be able to come up with in the game, and its ability to cast spells without being stopped.
hope this helps a bit
that maybe so but he'd loose power dice to them even though they cant sue them and the stumpies would Loose their +2 to dispell due to being allied to a wizard.
and he wouldnt get that lovely 18" inspiring presence either due to the alliance rules.
trying to find a nice FoD army to ally with that doesnt cut his chance to heal wounds and raise new stuff would be best either another VC list or even some WoC with no magic maybe.
If you read his origional post you would see what armies he would have available. That is what i was working to, not what would be his ideal ally.
I also said it depends on if they are using the alliance rules. and his opponent with be using chaos and he vc, and only we, he, and dwarfs to choose from i asume they will not be bothering with the alliance rules. If they did then none of the armies would get the 18" inspiring presence anyway.
As Dwarf rune smiths and rune lords still generate dispel dice and do not channel them, you can tot up a fair number of dispel dice that way, not to mention an extra one for the anvil should one be taken. this kinda makes up greatly for loosing +2 to dispel, and if the dispelling comes from one pool and they use a lvl 4 vamp to dispel with then thats a +4 anyway.
@saltrock36 not if your playing with the alliance rules the dwarf dispel dice as they are technically channeled (all be it automaticly) can only be used by the dwarves and can not be used to help the vampire units
There seems to be a bit of confusion. We're not planning on following any existing rules for alliances. None of this forces of destruction or Forces of good stuff. I mean, there are only two destruction armies present and they are going to be on opposite sides regardless of anything else. The 18" inspiring presence is just something we decided to do. If it mimics an actual rule, it's by shear coincidence.
That being said, all the normal rules still apply to each race in and of itself. Dwarfs still get the +2 to dispel, HE still get the +1 to dispel, etc. Also, we'll probably play that the winds of magic gift the "Force Commander" with the total dice, which he can then decide where to distribute them. Essentially, you'll roll once, and you can use them wherever you want. None of this split evenly stuff. Otherwise there'd be no reason to have any mages, because you'd be looking a max of 6 dice per faction. So you're looking at 1 spell per faction? If that?
I was thinking dwarfs myself. Not so much from the fluff side (lets face it, these guys wouldn't want to ally with any of the amries present), and not so much from the tactical side, as much as just denying it to my opponent. Warriors of chaos aren't that shooty, but they do have hellcannons. And with the new rules about just placing the template where you want it, that dang thing HURTS! And I'm not too keen on the idea of him having the only two armies that have stone throwers. Plus, VC's don't have ANY shooting units, so I'm thinking the dwarfs would compliment the vampire quite nicely.
I think my opponent is leaning towards High Elves. He likes the idea of Magic supremacy (stupid banner of sorcery, you're amazing powers are so much more amazing in 8th). Which will be interesting if I go with dwarfs because they're clearly the best at killing magic now since they get +2 to dispell on everything, and the smiths still give extra dispell dice. The problem is, I can have the best magic defense in the world, but it doesn't mean anything if I can't get any spells off myself due to Drain Magic and +5 to dispel. If I can't bring any of my corpses back to life, it might be a very quick game.
Really enjoying the advice people are giving. Please, keep it comming. We're looking at the battle taking place at the end of this month, so we've still got some time. We're working on the final rules of how the armies will interact with each other which is taking time, but our work schedules are also nearly impossible to line up so we have to plan this kind of thing in advance and hope things work out the way we'd like them to. Maybe I should post this in the WoC section for him, I almost feel like I'm cheating by asking for help on my decision when he's not doing so. So if anyone wants to offer an opinion for a WoC ally, feel free, and I'll pass it on to him.
Had the battle the other day, and I won. Vampires and Dwarfs vs Chaos Warriors and High Elves. We calculated points out in both 7th and 8th edition (since 8th doesnt have win ratings anymore, just win-lose) and it was a massacer.
MVP of the game went to my horde formation of ghouls with a vampire lord and wight BSB. They took out two units of warriors, a full 40ish block of mauraders, a chaos lord with a flaming D3+1 wound sword, a warshrine or two. And an eagle I think, but who counts those anyway... Highlight was probably when I hit the chaos lord's unit in the flank, and accepted his challange with my ghoul champion. I revealed the sword that he was carrying, which proved to be a real game turner. I think I lost that combat by 1 (he got max overkill on the ghoul with D3+1 wounds per wound) and he reformed to get me out of the flank. Next round, he challanged again, and I accepted with my BSB, who had the dragon helm. Immune to fire, and thus that sword. In return popped out the sword of kings and killing blowed his lord. Ah, that was amazing.
His MVP was his "ginger" unit. He painted up a unit of mauraders to look like gingers, and painted up an exhaulted hero to look like Cartman from South Park. He insists that Cartman and his horde of gingers are going to take over the world. And whille they're just mauraders, somehow they usually find themselves in the perfect positions. I got the flank charge on this lord's unit, and the next round he rolled AMAZINGLY well and destoryed the ghoul unit his gingers were in contact with (by one kill). Reformed and had the perfect rear shot on my big ghouls. Would have changed how combat with his lords unit went. Luckily, in the next round of combat against the lord (the last one where I killing blowed him) his unit killed just enough ghouls for me to lose the last one in the back rank, increasing the required charge distance. He failed the charge with his gingers, then took black coach and vargulf to the rear, and vargulf to the flank. No more gingers.
Even though the dwarfs failed me shooting wise (even with rune of accuracy, couldnt hit a dang thing with all three stone throwers) the hammer unit and it's dwarf lord saved me several times. I would never have gotten that flank on his lords unit if master rune of challange hadn't dragged him out into the perfect position. The hammerers were also the target of most of his spells (curse of the leper, purple sun, bubos) which left my Immune to phychology guys plenty of time to go on rampages and not worry about panicing. He did manage to kill my anvil though. That was horrible. Got within range and then screamed at it with something, 2D6 S1 hits no armor save. I've never seen so many 6's in a single role. Even with the 4++ from the anvil the unit exploded.
All in all, really fun game. Both of us had our highs and lows, and it was still anyone's game until about the bottom of turn 5. At that point he couldn't reach most of my point heavy units, and most of his were gone. Except his Chosen. I don't think I have EVER managed to kill his entire unit of Chosen. There's always at least one left. I would recommend this kind of game to anyone who has the availaible models. It's really fun to build one cohesive force out of two armies, and allow one to make of up for the losses (shooting) in the other.