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  1. #1
    Son of LO
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    What would you like to see in our 8th ed Army Book...

    basically, i thought we might have some fun discussing what kinds of fixes/tweeks we'd like to see when our army book gets updated. Since the release of 8th ed, i've found myself steadily growing more and more bored with our current book - mainly due to the utter lack of choice it offers...
    I honestly feel that we vampires should be the next book up after the current 3 that are rummored; our tomb king cousins, the ogres & the now confirmed orcs&gobbos.

    some of the things i'd like to see:
    - Bring back the Bloodlines!!! maybe in a similar way to the marks of chaos, you could spend a few pts to 'mark' your vampire with a bloodline which would slightly enhance a stat and/or add a special rule? (ie: 'blood dragon crest' = +1WS & +1A?)
    and of corse, allow the mixing of bloodlines as we have right now. (ie: you don't have to apply the same bloodline mark across every vampire in the army).

    - re-work the powers. I really like the system we currently have, but there are obvious 'better' choices within all the powers. basically, some powers like forbidden lore need a pts hike, while other powers that never seem to be used could do with some tweeking/pts-drop to make them viable options.

    - our general should come with built-in miscast protection! considering the importance of this single model, it really blows when he explodes 1st turn thanks to a jammy miscast... (which seems to happen ALOT! more often nowadays too.)
    I'm not trying to say we should be immune or next to it! But at least some slight protection, such as maybe avoiding the first miscast, or adding a modifier to the roll to make actually exploding outright a bit less likely...


    Now the main fix we need and the biggest reason why we should get an update before most other armies: GIVE US SOME GOD DAMN UNIT CHOICES!!!
    not only are every single one of our units now rather over-pointed due to the change in how the fear rules work, but seriously, we have all of about 2 core choices, 2 special choices & 4 rare choices for actual, viably competitive lists!!! that's bull*%!&. why can't we have back/get new units like;

    - zombie levy: zombies who can get spears or crossbows. (give the crossbow zombies a set to-hit roll like say 6+ so they'll actually do something and even give us a shot at having a full game turn too!)
    make these units the zombies you 'buy' and thus naked, raised zombies become the super crappy tarpit of doom. i'd also make zombies T3 so that you don't lose a unit of 40-50 guys to a basic enemy unit, but overall make it harder to raise massive hoards with only 2-3 invocations...

    - give dire wolves back their slavering charge rule so they become playable please.

    - give skellies a few more equipment options like say halberds and/or heavy armour for fun! make it slightly expensive, but we do have the models so let us use them please and have some fun!
    also they could do with a pts drop since they're still just skellies and have crap unless they've been magically buffed and/or have at least 1-2 fighty characters in their front rank.

    - corspe carts should count towards the core minimums and also get a buff since they're kinda a joke right now... (yay S2 thunderstomp!!!)

    - black knights & grave guard are fine, though i think it would be cool to have a halberd option back for the GG. again, i'd make it the most expensive upgrade, since it's the 'best of both worlds', but it would add a little more variety too, and offer up a neat little 'you must convert it to get it' option that seems to be cropping up in all the newer books.

    - fell bats should be S4 IMHO. right now they're decent for sending after war marchines, but that's about it... they're just too unreliable to even send after things like fast cav since they have a horrible habbit of flubbing their dice rolls. plus the huge base size they have makes it hard to get more than 3 hit with their full attacks...

    - why not add in something like a 'charnal guard' unit? basically a lightly armoured ghoul-style GG equivalent. they could be slightly cheaper in pts, and instead of killing blow, have like a 'magical poison' that perhaps always wounds on a 5+?! give 'em options like say additional hand weapons.
    it would offer a neat alternative to a more expensive grave guard unit, and allow for more fully themed strigoi lists too!

    - why not a give us a unit of monstrous infantry? something along the lines of giant warewolves!!! again, make 'em pts-heavy and along the lines of thing like trolls or rat ogres, but why are we the only army besides dwarves & brets who don't get a single monstrous infantry option?!

    - the black coach definately needs a tonning down! right now it's retardedly godly! (mind you, right now we do deserve a break somewhere at least...) i think that this guy overall needs to have a whole new chart so that it's not pretty much invincible by turn 2-3...

    - bloodknights should drop a few pts to help reflect the bigger units you really need... i could easily accept a slight statline decrease to compensate, but for now they're very much a big gamble/big pay-off. (ie: they either get blasted to pieces right away, or else they just munch most of an army which isn't fun for either side!)


    well, those are just some of my random thoughts... what do you guys think? also, how would you change things like our magic to bring it in line with 8th ed?
    cheers!


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  3. #2
    Senior Member apbevan's Avatar
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    I think some Armies are in need of lists sooner and it will be interesting to see what they do with Tomb Kings to see how they think Undead and Fear now place in 8th

    I don't think Zombies should have equipment thats what skeletons are for so the question is should we get a ranged option for our skeletons?
    I do think Zombies need a stat rework as T2 is pathetic but at least with 8th S2 can wound anything on a 6. Zombies still do what they do you just need a little bit more of them but because they are raised at D6+4 this is not a problem.

    Our VC powers are fine even the summoning ones as their main advantage is to raise beyond starting is quite cheap.
    I think Forbidden Lore is fine at its current points as it makes it a pain to combine with other powers but not to expensive to make it a focused only power like MoTBA or Red Fury.

    Dire Wolves and Bat Swarms definitely need a rework to make them useful.
    Fel Bats are ok but could be better now that flying has changed.
    Corpse Cart's Misama is still decent but the rest of it took a beating and like you said most of the unused VC stuff is because it does not count towards core. If it doesn't count towards core make it better and or make it special?

    I don't think we need much in the way of new units as we have a nice selection it just needs to be a useful selection. Maybe expand some options for our Skeletons.

    The Black Coach is not really better or worse than it was in 7th, It has a good chance of getting more dice from the power pool but when it becomes flying it only moves 10". Its main weakness is still static combat res so its not any tougher than it was.

    Toned down cheaper Blood Knights are called Black Knights. Blood Knights are costed right for what they are.

    Vampires Counts is still a decent army, it can't be abused like before and could use a little reworking into 8th but really whose army couldn't? The biggest area we took a hit was the raising and fear so if that was your play style I can see why you would think it needs a rework badly. I have always played a more Balanced/Combat oriented lists and never relied on fear as there are plenty of ItP armies/unit and so don't find the transition to 8th all that bad.
    Last edited by apbevan; December 8th, 2010 at 17:26.

  4. #3
    Senior Member DoctorDogmeat's Avatar
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    @apbevan I presume this is just a bit of fun, since vamps won't be getting a new book for years.

    I think the bloodlines need re-doing for 8th since at the moment most vampire armies only have 1 Vampire Lord in them who is a caster, the rest are obsolete. The rest of the army needs deducting in points since fear is useless and units crumble fast unlike Daemons who get to take an instability check.

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    Senior Member apbevan's Avatar
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    Yes my impression from the OP is that this is just for fun.

    I don't see how the rest of the powers are obsolete just because you only have 1 caster lord. There are plenty of powers that are combat related. Magic items+Powers+vampire stats equals a good combat heros to lead your weaker troops.

    Yes a points rework on our core units would be nice but I guess it depends on the weight GW gives to raising troops. This is why I am quite interested to see what they do with Tomb Kings for both points and raising spells.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Collins254's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorDogmeat;1770149I
    The rest of the army needs deducting in points since fear is useless and units crumble fast unlike Daemons who get to take an instability check.
    Daemons are very touch and go, you can doom and darkness a demon unit, beat them in combat by 1 and watch them lose 4 or 5 models, so it balances out, to really hurt us you have to beat us in combat by atleast 10, and if you beat demons in combat by 10, theres a good chance theyre losing 5-14 models, ok could get a double 1 thats true, but it works both ways, i think our rule is fine the way it is.

    admittedly though i was gutted at the loss of bloodlines, my blood dragon lord now has become a magicy fighty sort of lord with no real speciaility coz i cant seem to get away without having forbidden lore and lvl3 caster on my lord...
    Fantasy : Empire, Chaos Warriors, Chaos Daemons, Vampire Counts, Beastmen, High Elves, Lizardmen( but i have opinions on every army just not the money)
    40k: Black Templars, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Tau (thinking of Eldar)

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    Son of LO
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    basically, it's not that i'm finding it hard per say to win with VC's - we're still a kick@$$ force! it's simply becoming super boring since our book lacks any real variety and/or choice of options... overall, our character upgrades & unit selections are cut and dry; it's awsome like forbidden lore, or it's utter crap like almost our entire core section!

    some of the biggest issues i find when list building;
    - the powers are stale. forbidden lore is way too obvious with the new BRB lores, plus it helps cercumvent the '1 of each spell per army' rule due to being a loremaster power... why the hell would i ever take anything other than FL on a caster lord?!
    but i never see powers like the terror-causer, spectral form or aura of dark majesty and similar. always the same old combos everywhere you look because it works almost too well now...

    - our unit selection is abysmal! over half our units are worthless poop... the fact that only ghouls & skellies count towards the core minimums means everything is out the window, unless you're only playing a friendly match-up for example.
    blood knights and wraiths i find are a bit too expensive considering how; a) they're very fragile when it comes down to it since they're such high priority targets. b) they're very difficult to raise back. (basically, i shouldn't be almost forced to use a blood drinker vampire just to ensure more than 1-2 knights live to see combat on turn 2!) c) any unit they fight is almost always going to be steadfast since they'll out-rank those units...

    - we have no shooting phase. so basically, we're losing out on a big part of the game which i feel isn't fair at all! (granted, we should never be able to gunline or anything, but it would be nice to have something to do beyond the massively expensive and not-so-effective banshee scream...)
    i figured it would be cool to see the idea of a zombie levy getting the missile fire option/s since it would mean; a) we'd finally get new and scary-looking zombie models!!! not the cheesy cartoon versions we've got right now... and b) it would give zombies a defined support role and thus, help create a clear difference between 'buying' a core unit of zombies or summoning new units of zombies. (right now, it's silly to spend pts on zombies, since it's only a fraction of the VP's to just raise a new unit and build on it!)


    i know that when our book finally does get redone, we will almost certainly get at least one or two new units! i'm hoping to see us get a proper monstrous infantry unit of some kind since again, we're about the only army who doesn't have that option... the other new unit i can forsee being a new monster of some kind so that GW can produce yet another big plastic kit.

    i think it will also be insteresting to see what happens with our magic... right now i find i don't use vamp magic beyond my necro's spells. the book lores - especially light & beasts are just way better in every way! we need to be given a reason to take our own magic lore most of the time IMHO.

    cheers!

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    It'd be nice if they finally gave some good options for von Carstein or Lahmian bloodlines. Right now there are only Blood Dragon set-ups with Red Fury + infinite hatred or Necrarch one's with Forbidden Lore + MotBA/Dark Acolyte. The only semi useful ability that's not a BD or Lahmian power is the +1 combat res power, and even it's not thaaaaat good

    Like to see some better balanced core and special options. Ghouls and Graveguard are by far the best options, with maybe Skelly's and Black Knights coming in second and everything else trying their hardest to be in last Think they need to really think about some of the roles some of those units have, cause Dire Wolves are useless now that they're warbeasts and Bat Swarms have always been a joke. Spirit Hosts are like Bat Swarms but slightly better because they have a unique role as not only a tarpit but an ethereal tarpit, however still they need a price reduction to be worthwhile in that regard.

    Maybe expand on the Necromancers and other heroes a bit. I'd like for an ethereal hero to come back, as I thought it was a cool idea in 6th.

    Make better models There are only 2 models for vampires this edition and they both suck (unless you want to play Lahmian or Strigoi). They need to start making their models look like the pictures in the books, cause THOSE are what I want to play when I play VC lol

    Add miscast protection in some form. Miscasts are deadliest to vampires, and yet we have no protection in our army book!!! I liked how in 6th Necrarch vamps had a power that let the re-roll a single spell dice, thus avoiding miscasts. That was cool, I'd like to see something similar come back.

    Make crumbling less deadly. I like the idea of it, it's very fluffy and cool. However it's not fun for me or my opponent when the vampire miscasts or gets hit with a cannon on turn one and dies. It'd be funner if vampire loss did damage your army a bit, but didn't auto-lose the game in most situations. Maybe only crumble core? Or mabye not crumble units with heroes in them? Lots of ways to lessen the impact...


  9. #8
    Senior Member Collins254's Avatar
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    Ok i see some of your points but they are only true if you play very strait forward and dont consider what you use in the list.

    1. Bloodline powers, ok the ones you pointed out are the most popular, but the Master powers are very useful for themed armies, i always take lord of the dead because i prefer skellies over ghouls, personally i prefer a save and full command over slightly better toughness. Beguile and the sword of kings is a nice combo with infinite hatred and a reaon to take aura of dark majesty, an opponent at -4ld is gunna struggle a bit to pass his ld test, and aura makes fear that little bit better, ok scouting vampires arent great but a scouting vampire on a hellsteed with avatar of death is good at wiping out small skirmish units or warmachines. the only ability i dont seem to see a need for is causing terror, ok its useful but not worth precious bloodline points.

    2.Like i already said about core choices i prefer skellies over ghouls, zombies are good, i personally think theyre only in the core section so you can see theyre stats when raised, i know very few who would pay points for zombies lol, corpse carts are of, especially with balefire, and wolves are good for screening, bat swarms were good back when they were infantry and u got D6 per raising, and due ot relative cheapness could tarpit fairly well, i still think fell bats are amazing for such a low cost, again no longer infantry so u cant buy 3 and on turn 1 have ur vamp lord add 5 to the unit then slaughter a war machine turn 2, now are still good if u got a corpse cart with the unholy loadstone and one casting gives u a bat each time aslong as u have lord of the creatures of the night. Varghulfs are the only unit i see as useless, for the same cost u can almost get either a black coach, 3 wraiths with a banshee, for a bit more u can get 4 blood knights, all of which are better than the varghulf:/

    3. I agree with you on the heroes, i miss my wraith on his steed with MR2 and 4+ ward vs magical attacks, send him out alone to eat warmachines back in 6th, and considering Nagash is a necromancer, noone else seems to be any good, if i recall in the last book a necromancer comes close to killing a necrarch vampire, ok he didnt but only coz he forgot that he was still stronger than any human, so i imagine there are some pretty decent necro's just none of them seem to show up anymore. Also i miss my Lahmian army that used the rules in the back of the book with a casket of souls, bretonian bsb with banner of the lady and a Tzeentch sorceror on a disc lol

    4. With miscast protection, it would be nice to have, but that just means we have to be more careful in our casting, in 3 years of using vampires i have never lost my lord to a miscast, i have taken wounds, but never lost him, though in 3 years i think he has only died twice lol and once was to a lucky Ogre :@

    5. Crumbling isnt that deadly with the right precautions, though i use bloodknights which dont crumble, and have a hero in all my infantry units incase they need to pass a ld test, the banner of +1ld is handy, so is the vamp banner that makes u immune to the crumble from the general, so it can be slowed, and any unit/ model with vampire rule is excempt, one plus to the varghulf i suppose.
    Fantasy : Empire, Chaos Warriors, Chaos Daemons, Vampire Counts, Beastmen, High Elves, Lizardmen( but i have opinions on every army just not the money)
    40k: Black Templars, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Tau (thinking of Eldar)

  10. #9
    Son of LO
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    totally agree that currently, the crumbling aspect isn't as deadly now in 8th since we can spam alot of cheap charaters like necros & wight kings to keep the army solid... plus it just gives us yet another reason to have that BSB around and not just to automatically waste pts on the dickenhoff banner!

    but i would like to see some form of miscast protection for our general. miscasts weren't a huge issue in 7th as you needed to roll double 1's to miscast, and then roll double 1's yet again to auto-kill him!
    however, in 8th, miscasts are overly harsh on vamps since it will happen to us more often, (at least statisitcally since we include far more casters than other armies), and it's even more crippling - as an exploding general will also nuke pretty much his entire unit as well!

    i'm not saying our general should be immune or anything, but perhaps since the vampire lord who summons the army is supposed to have better control, then perhaps allow him an innate save against miscasting, or perhaps a modified Ld test to avoid the effects?!
    just giving us a magic item that basically allows us to ignore a miscast or two simply makes it mandetory in every army... (and it's lazy!) but an innate ability for the general could perhaps allow for a deeper exploration into the backstory of undead rulers in general?! (no pun intended)


    my big problem with our core is that we have only 2 choices with which to make-up our minimum 25%+ this makes it hard to include other stuff - especially those pts heavy corpse carts!
    i'd just like to see us get another solid option in our core selection that would also count towards the army's required minimums... (since every other army has at least 3 options to begin with!!!)

    cheers!

  11. #10
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    we do have three options that count towards core.

    1. Skeleton warriors - full command magic banner
    2. Crypt Ghouls - 2A each Poisoned attacks T4
    3. Zombie Horde - Less said

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