Welcome to Librarium Online!
so, i got my wonderful valentines gift from GW this morning! an incoming article confirming our dusty cousins for release in may!
now, considering how much 8th ed has screwed over all undead in general, i have a feeling that there will be major changes to the basics of how undead work in the tomb king book. (especially the skellies, who are utter crap in competitive play right now beyond the unit standard they can take...)
so, if there are sweeping changes to the undead, how long before GW gives us a proper book that has more than 3 potential builds?!
lastest rummored have the releases looking like;
March: O&G's. rummor of small dark eldar blister pack wave.
April: Grey Knights
May: Tomb Kings
Summer: Dark Eldar 2nd wave & 40k flyers
Summer: rummored fantasy release, large monster kits for every army
Late Fall/Pre-December: Bretonnians
a pretty full calender overal, plus there's got to be at least 1 rather pointless LotR/WotR release to waste space...
so, if most of the above turns out to be fairly true, does this mean we can hopefully expect to see a new VC book sometime early-mid next year?!!
it wouldn't be a bad idea really, VC's are a popular army, and our book is shit'tastically boring right now, not to mention has massive holes in terms of game play to fill! (like a shooting phase please!)
do we think it's possible GW might release VC's in a similar manner to O&G's in order to build funds for a more dicey release, (like wood elves?) we wouldn't get more than 3 plastic sets in a similar style release, but then our model range is decent, needing really;
- new zombies
- plastic black knights!!!
- plastic monster
- new unit/s
so, any other conspiricy theories out there?
VC has more builds then most books that are competitive right now, I'd be happy if I played them. I really don't see them as one of the armies needing a new book any time soon. New models, those they need but most of their staple kits are good to go. Just need new Black Knights as you said, Black Coach and less horrible looking character models. Zombie kit is probably my favorite one the company makes.
If you want to do good looking Black Knights try using Brettonian Knights of the Realm. Use the Grave Gaurd kit and use their shields and heads instead of the humie ones. It acually works well enough for me and sure as hell beats the metal ones we have at the moment...
Besides the special character vamps, they are all seriously dated and ugly. The zombies are also looking veyr dated, I garuntee the knew ones will look great given the more stylized sculpts we've been getting of late. Plastic Black Knights a must. More than anything we really just need points adjustments, even if it is just purely the models themsleves (no upgrades items etc) they should cover it in an erratta.
you always go ghoul spam + either a gravestar or bloodbus. that's it!
i dare anyone to go to a GT qualifiyer or any type of 'ard boyz style event and play a VC list that doesn't follow the norm.
IMHO, if the new tomb kings book changes the way undead work overall, then VC's will need a new book in order to compete.
basically, if they add things like;
- change to crumble, ie: make it a test similar to daemons of chaos and/or give a bonus to units w/character
- BSB change. any change here beyond the current means our BSB just became an over-priced 'give x unit regen' model.
- steadfast bonus. something like making it easier to break the enemy if you outrank them.
obviously we're going to be using our skellies even less once the TK book comes out since theirs will be much better. (likely cheaper, perhaps slightly buffed)
plus, considering how difficult it is for us to make a our core minimums to begin with, we need some better options! (1 viable choice is bull$&*!)
my real gripe will be i guess, is that tomb kings will have alot more viability & choice than the VC's have, and i'd hate to think we'd have to wait another 3-4 years using the same 2 boring old lists every time if we want to actually win!
Nothing is competitive about 'Ard Boyz, that tournament is a joke.
You can run Ghoul spam but there's a lot of variety to that. Ghoul spam means you have Ghouls, you can run the characters as fighty or support, go heavy or light Magic, go with Corpse Carts or not etc. It's not an internet list, it's just an archetype,. Gravestar is the same way. It's not like other armies where you have almost no room for personal choices.
Also why would an Army Book change another one? it cannot, VC will keep their own Book rules, only the BRB could overrule that. They run differently right now, why would they update TK and say "Oh by the way, VC use these rules too." That would be a brand new move for them as far as writing books.
It's kind of funny how you're saying their skellies will be better etc. when you have no idea what's in the book, no one does. If the new O&G book has shown anything it's that they're shying away from radical army changes for Fantasy and just bringing things in line with 8th Edition rules. IMO VC need nothing to win and barely any changes to have a broader "choice" of units to take. Other books are way ahead, I hope.
I have it on good source that the Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms army books have been finished for some time now. So i expect that Ogres will be next followed by Brettonians or Wood Elves. Also that Skeletons are going to be 5 points with light armour
And just because only 2 VC lists are cheese enough to enter a GT or Ard boys tournament it doesnt mean they are the only viable builds. Saying something like that is just being rather ignorant. For alot of armies in 7th Edition that was the only case. And you didnt see them complaining as much<-- (assumption dont rip me up for it) when we had multiple choices we could take to such events. Basically we've just got to stop complaining, take it on the chin and find other ways to play the army
Last edited by Xico; February 17th, 2011 at 22:29.
corpse carts are a tricky thing in that they only become really usefull in pairs, so in lower pts games, it's tactically better to just put more pts into ghouls and/or your deathstar unit. (ie: a single balefire won't hamper a Lv4 all that much - especially for the cart's cost and the fact that it won't contribute to the army's core minimum.)
other armies have multiple competitive builds beyond the 1 or 2 tried and tested 'optimal' builds. VC's don't...
all of our main strengths got hammered by 8th ed, and we're stuck with a book that was designed to be power-gamed to begin with! VC's even in 7th always worked best when following a min/max approch, but that doesn't work anymore since 8th ed has tried to balance out the deathstars and get away from that style of play. (which is why those killer super spells exist!)
but now, we've lost;
- magic dominance. we're going to pay lots of pts for magic that won't always be there. plus our raising ability is crap now considering how many additional casulties the bulk of our units suffer in 8th!
- fear nerf. yes it was waaaaay too godly, but while daemons and other elite units get by fine, undead took a serious hit instead since our troops really struggle to win fights.
- min/maxing ability. it was designed into our book! no one ever took more than about 15-20% core because we could reliably raise what we would need. but it's too risky now with the broken concentration rules.
- crumble becoming unstable. a huuuuuuuge hit for us! there's a reason the hoff banner is so expensive - because it could help mitigate crumble damage. now it can't.
plus, we take hidieous amounts of damage in combat with step-up & extra ranks, while only 2-3 of our units can dish it out in return.
plus, we've gained little to no effect from step-up, steadfast or the BSB changes. huge buffs to everyone else though... too bad for us dead guys.
the O&G book is a meaningless comparison. they gained alot just from the basic 8th ed rules! undead on the other hand were badly hosed! (again, i dare anyone to win a combat with skeletons that aren't under the effect of multiple buffs.)
VC's need some help badly. it's seriously getting boring running one of 2 lists, or else hoping to get 2-3+ buffs off each magic phase just to get your skellies to fight decently!
most of our units are over-priced crap! zombies for example should half-cost now considering a skaven slave is more effective!!! and unless you've taken at least 70+, they're not lasting more than a turn or two, nor can they be used in their intended role of combat support, since they give-up massive amounts of combat res! their only use now is to be summoned into play, and thrown into gunlines...
i'm not saying we should trump wood elves/ogres/bretts - they've certainly waited long enough for some love, but VC's would be a very viable choice for GW to re-do to generate some cashflow in order to release one of the other 3 'bottom tier' armies as there's also not as popular. (and thus become a 'high risk' release since they could fall flat and sell poorly...)
I really don't know why you think other books have tons and tons of competitive builds. All books GW writes, for both games, have the "really bad units" the "okay units" and the "amazing units". You spam the amazing ones and mix in some of the okay ones for flavor, or you just spam the amazing ones. It's not AS bad in Fantasy as 40k, but it's still there. That doesn't mean a book is old, it just means a book is written by GW. New books never change the formula, that's well documented.
The main reason to update a book is because it no longer has any amazing units, for whatever reason. Like Brettonians were hit very hard by the 8th Edition changes, that made it so they need a book. Tomb Kings are in the same boat, although personally I'd like to see Brets done first. VC aren't in that category, they're actually quite effective with the 8th changes. They have roughly the same number (or higher) of "tournament" style builds as other armies. By builds I mean archetypes as discussed, there's really no such thing as true Internet Lists in Warhammer.
As for your arguments.
Fear Nerf, that was OP and you don't need it. Before you could win with just Skeletons in big units and a round of rolling better than your opponent. Now you have to adjust and run some of the MANY good fighting units VC have. Ghouls and Grave Guard are the best, so they rose to the top, but they aren't all that's there. Now your Skeletons or Zombies work more like road blocks, it's a strategy change.
You can still min-max, every army does. VC are actually great at it since your Core isn't wasted points like many other armies have to deal with. Broken Concentration is no risk, use more then 1 Power Dice per Invocation. Everything has some risk but as far as Magic goes, VC is at the bottom of the risk barrel.
Changing to Unstable was the right move, the Regen Banner is fine for what it does. How often do GG lose combat? They're among the best fighters in the game for their points, and their army backs them with magical support that is the envy of many.
Undead rules are not the same across both armies. TK have a Hierophant and a General, you just have a General. TK cannot March, you have to be near a Vampire to do so. You share a few basic rules, I doubt the fact that Undead cause Fear, are Unbreakable/Unstable will change, so VC won't need a change.
Rumors are rumors, look at the crap that came out before the O&G book, and if you know 40k the Grey Knight rumors were insanity. Cheaper I'll buy, buffs I won't Skellies are supposed to suck, they're Skellies. GW favors making units cheaper because it gets them money but I don't think it will be by a ton. Honestly, TK are vastly over-priced right now. They'll probably be brought in line with the points of armies who use similar profiles on their troops, their reduced stats are a trade off for being able to resurrect.
Honestly this just seems like the stuff every player who plays for a bit wishes to have, oh they get shiny new toys I want shiny new toys. You're comparing apples to oranges and that's not convincing. If you want to go to a big time tournie, yes you have to run one of a few builds. Everyone does, everyone. For a small local tournie, you can win on just being a good player or luck, it has always been that way. It's all moot anyways as I doubt VC are in the GW cross hairs, they seem to favor A. armies that make them a lot of money and B. armies that are SO old, they're embarrassing. A trumps B most of the time, they're a business.
We need a points drop for Skeletons I think. The fear changes mean they are not as effective. I run a lahmian list so all i have are skeletons, grave guard, Blackknights. Vamps, A necromancer, Wight king and a Varghulf with some wolves. I don't win every game but i do have a good time with it.