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Is it possible, in the lower points where you can't afford a Vampire Lord, to use a Wight King as the general, since its states in the rulebook that the character with the highest leadership is the general. This could make it easier to disguise your general, so even if they kill our vamp, we're not crumbling. Thoughts?
Thanks, I'll be banking on an update when we can get it then =/
Care to elaborate?
I believe he's referring to our rubbish and expensive core choices. Compared to every other army, our core sucks. Tomb Kings and even Goblins (even if they fail their fear test) beat us simply by outnumbering us, and we're meant to be a horde army! My last two games, my units of 20 skele's got stomped in one round of combat. If I had had 40 (like Tomb Kings players now can) I would have survived and been able to counter charge their flank with my grave guard and Vamp. We do have good units in our army, but everything costs so much, we can't pull off our intended style of play as effectively any more.
Our book is the second worst pile of utter tripe Gav 'whats play-testing' Thorpe ever craped outa his arse! (only the 6th ed dark elves were worse!)
Sure we were epic broken in 7th with invo-spam + gravestar build... Now we're broken with ghoul-spam + gravestar. It simply means we have a craptastically bad book with no internal balance what-so-ever!
8th has simply dropped us to the bottom of the pile... 'uber spells rape us at every turn, doesn't matter if it's a srength, toughness or initiative based test, it's bad for us. Add to that the chance to have your general insta-gibbed without any kind of save!
Step-up hurts us alot more than every other army; we are among the lowest initiative armies in the game, but then we have the added nerf of the new 'instability' rule which means we crumble twice as fast as before.
But now we also have less magic to heal with on top of the extra casulties we suffer...
Plus, the way crumble works means that flanking is actually a terrible tactic for VC's! Any half-witted player will simply aim for the squishier unit, and then if you lose, EVERY unit involved crumbles! (zombies are easily the worst unit in the game as even skaven slaves will massacre them in droves...)
Fear is pointless overall now, especially with the added buffs the ever-present BSB's you see now. Yet somehow undead BSB's (even the new tomb king one) isn't really up to par.
Steadfast gimps our army even more. Undead don't kill much, so it's more an insult to injury when we do win, but still watch our opponent's pass their tests easily because they outrank us...
Every model in our book, bar wight kings, necromancers, grave guard & ghouls are grossly over-costed.
- Zombies should be all of 1 pt right now as WS1/I1/S2/T2/Ld2 is a joke on unstable infantry. (and a bad one at that)
- Skeletons cost needs to be cut in half. (as tomb kings proved)
- Dogs are worthless except as dragon traps. They're warbeasts paying pts for crap fear & being phantom fast cav! (as that got taken away!) oh, and they cap at 20/unit and don't count towards core mins...
- Corse Carts are decent, but don't count towards core mins, can't join units and have a paltry S2! (who gives a crap about thunderstomp when you're that bad!)
- Bat Swarms, like most swarms are always useless...
- Fell Bats need S4
- Black Knights are good, but way over-costed and adding a vampire or necro gimps the unit.
- Spirit Hosts would be scary, but they're swarms still. (and expensive ones at that)
- Wraiths are completely hit-or-miss and a Banshee is a waste of pts. (the statline hit is huuuuuge!)
- Blood Knights need to drop by at least 10pts to be viable. Their statline isn't as epic as many make it out to be.
- Black Coach is win, but gimps our magic, so it's a real double edged sword
- Vargs need to be at least 25pts cheaper.
Add to this misery, the fact that we lack ANY KIND OF SHOOTING!!! (banshees are a joke as they only average 2-4 kills per scream for 175pts investment) This comes in an edition were shooting is pretty much a 'must have' in some fashion due to the larger units. (hell, warriors even have their hellcannons now!)
We also have no 'monstrous' unit of any kind to help support our infantry...
Thralls are a massive pts sink... They're paying through the nose for a very confused statline; S5 & 3 attacks scream combat, T4/2W is simply average, Ld7 is awful and the mandetory wizard level means his cost is needlessly inflated! Oh, and thank-you Gav for thinking that basic fething heavy armour + shield should cost 20+ fething pts!!! >.< (cause that's only what, 3 or 4 times what every army pays for the same thing?!)
Thralls serously need to go back to their 6th ed incarnation; 80'ish pts base, with equipment options, add wizard level as an option damnit!!!
The VC book is simply as bad as bad can be... Wood Elves & Brets for example had decent lists that were simply nerfed (unfairly) by the new rules in general. Undead instead got the epic shaft because of the Daemons issue.
Sorry for the rant.
I'll give you Rep for that.
did i just see some righting that vampire counts are bottom tier? that we have expnsive and useless core? that we only have 1 viable list?
we were broken in 7th and now we are reativly balanced but no where near bottom tier
me and another VC player hav hardly lost a game since 8th ed and iv only beat his army once with my chaos army and at the end of it i had a hero left and nothing else
yea we rely on characters but i personaly like that and it means u have to think more rather than just run in like a headless chicken like high elevs can do
and as for lists i just though of an awsome 1:
u take the helm of command and the WS10 sword and a bsb with the regen banner and full lore of shadows
put the bsb in a unit of 50 zombies and charge them at a unit and see how well they do
then when the bsb is needed else where u cast the spell that makes u fly from shadows and then have him jump to another unit switching out a character
just keep doing this and u effectivly have 3 units with the regen banner
Ghouls are broken as they're 'no-brainer' options. Why you would use skeletons aside from needing a bunker unit + banner in even a semi-cometitive setting?!! The ghoul's T4 is roughly the equal of the skeleton's parry save untill you hit S6+, at which point the parry becomes better.
But the point is, 8th ed is about killing shit in combat!!! Static combat res counts for only a small portion now, you need to kill stuff - which skeletons & zombies especially struggle to do!
Ghouls can kill stuff quite effectively due to their 2 attacks + poison, hence, ghouls are by far, "better".
Also, if us being 'balanced' to you means that most other armies have to leave the bulk of their semi-competitive options at home, because they'll utterly demolish most of our units, then sure, we're really balanced!?!
Keep in mind, low initiative + unstable + step-up = bad. Our units, especially our core get hit alot harder now, but have little to no ability to make up for it in return...
Oh, and yes, watching our general get sniped by the 'uber spells, (dwellers, PSoX, pit, final trans, dreaded 13th, gateway) with no chance to even stop it on the first turn is really fun!!! Not to mention the one and only thing that can save you is a hugely expensive talisman that works once, and can still fail!
Plus, the regen banner isn't really worth the huge pricetag now - maybe if it was 25-35pts less. I haven't used the dickenhof banner myself for almost a year now - everyone and their mother knows how to counter it by making sure to always include the cheap burny banner from the BRB!
Now, perhaps your local meta/friends aren't into playing any kind of optimised list? (if not, consider yourself lucky to live in such a utopia of friendly gaming!)
But, I dare you to take a non ghoulspam + gravestar build to any serious tournament were the other optimum builds appear... I promise you you'll lose quite spectacularly!
VC's are bottom tier because we have the worst internal balance of ANY! army book. Once players are being forced to use specific options to stay competitive, a book is well and truely broken!
The new tomb kings showed us for example just how bad basic undead core is in 8th - skeletons dropping 50% in pts, that's huge!!!
We desperately need a similar fix, because right now, almost our entire book is massivly over-pointed, our characters (looking you thralls!) are among the most unbalanced in the game, and the only hitting power we have is relegated to 1 over-powered special unit and the rares...
we need to go back to something along the lines of our 6th ed book!
yea if i took a no ghoulspam gravestar build to a tournament i wld get demolished by certain lists (skaven, high elves, lizardmen) but then so does every 1 else
anyway why am i cheating?
anyway as for balanced i mean we are not top anymore and more 5-6th
this other guy plays VC more than me and he hasnt lost a game yet apart from once against me with my warriors of chaos and the lists at my store are ulta competitive i.e teclis in 40 phenoix guard with the banner that makes u immune to magic, 40 chosen with the terror banner to get 3+ ward, the giant blocks of lizardmen and he has beat every1 of them.
so yea VC are no where near bottom tier, below VC are woodeleves, bretonians, beastmen, ogres, and empire and are probably tied with WC