Welcome to Librarium Online!
Hi everyone. I have been playing 40k for the last couple years, and am thinking of getting back to fantasy. There is plenty to catch up on, and even more newer things to learn but I am thinking of starting Counts. So far I have well established Empire and Britonian armies, but with Counts Im expecting something completely different.
I was hoping to see some kinda strategy threat stickied to the top but so far I havent found any good threads about the basic 101 with the counts. The army list section also hasnt been too helpful, given the fact that every list is completely different due to availability of so many units.
So before I sit down and try to establish the exact details of the list, Im hoping to get some basic strategical info from vamp players out here. Main unit strengths, weaknesses, lord setups, how to better use each unit and how to control the magic phase - which so many players seem to attempt to muster. So if anyone knows any great threats about vamp tactics and etc, please be sure to link them.
P.S Also, I know I said I dont want to be making any lists yet but I do want to include a zombie dragon in the force. I played fantasy since I was 16 but never actualy owned my own dragon, burrowed and played with plenty, but never owned my own. Therefore this is one of those noob dreams that I want to satisfy early.
well it depends if u want to be competitve or not
basically there is 1 list VC can do however this list is very good
this list revolves around a unit of grave guard (about 7 wide and 5 deep) stuffed full of characters and then a few units of gouls and ethral units
however here are a few tips on buids:
1st off zombies are rubbish, they are probably the wost unit in the game, iv seen a battle between 100 zombies and 80 noblars and the zombies lost (btw best fight iv seen)
however VC have a helm of command or something to let them use the lords weapon skill. now there is a magic weapon which gives u WS10. these can both be stuck on a vampire hero and ta da u hve WS10 zomies (a slight immprovment from there WS1)
if you are going for a zomie dragon then i wld take a unit of zombies for fun and of course a corpse cart or 2 (i wouldnt take the black coach)
as for the rest of the core choices u dont have much
gouls are very good in hordes hpwever the have no armour but can br raised back pretty easily
if u take zombies the i wldnt take skelletons as they are kind of useless
then for special
grave guard are awsome
they have a 4+ save which isnt to bad however again here is another trick
deploy 5 wide with full command and then put a vampire lord and another vampire or wright king
then take a battle standard with the regen banner and give him lore of metal and give the unit the +1 to hit banner
now it is possible to have grave guard with a 2+save followed by a 4+ regen with killing blow and with 2+ to hit and armour piercing
i wld give the vampire lord in the grave guard lore of beasts and the other vampire lord on dragon lore of light
basically if you are looking at a fluffy 3k list then it wld look somethign like
vampire lord on dragon (lore of light)
Vampire lord (lore of beasts)
Vampire with the WS10 thing
Vampire bsb with regen banner
2 corse carts
25 grave gard
then maybe a few of the flying wolf things
Unfortunatly both the Helm of Command (give a unit your WS) and Fencers Blades (paired weapons at WS10 ) would take you to 70pts of magic items, so you would have to use them on a Lord, not a Hero. Alternatively WS6 isnt somthing to cry about.
If you take the Helm (and why wouldn't you?!) then you'll want to invest in a 25-30 strong skeleton 'bunker' which can sit behind your main fighting line and keep the helm out of any combats! (as it won't work if the helm-wearer is locked in combat)
Skeletons while terrible and double the cost of the new tomg king versions, are still a hugely vital unit for forming bunkers and for adding additional banners to your army as certain senarios require them for meeting objectives!
Finally, Corse Carts are for asthetics at best. Their spell is a 'poor mans' vanhel's danse and the cart either chews up a tonne of your Heroes alotment, or else won't help you reach your Core Units requirments... (thus relegating it into the over-crowded 'garbage slot')
The Black Coach on the other hand is fearsome - especially against armies that are built around magical offense! The coach powers-up insanely fast now, is easily the game's hardest chariot and can potentially cripple magic phases as it sucks up power dice! Next to the Vargulf, the Black Coach is our 'best' Rare Unit choice. (as Blood Knights & Cairn Wraiths are easily at least about 15-20% over-costed right now)
Wight Kings should always be the BSB (battle standard bearer) as they're far, far tougher than a Vampire Thrall. Also, don't get sucked into thinking that the Drakenhof Banner makes you invincible! Only morons don't bring flaming attacks this edition and a single fireball spell, or flaming arrow, or high initiative flaming attack will end your grave guard fast!
Also don't try and rely on magical buffs... Besides, before looking into the lores of metal or beasts, getting our own VC lore and/or Lore of Light is better. (both lores synergise far better and help deal with our basic undead drawbacks much more effecitively)
- to bring both lords to the table, you will have all of 65pts to spend on powers/equipment for BOTH!!! Sadly, zombie dragons suck even moreso this edition... If you're wanting a real monster, wait untill the Aug white dwarf as we're getting a new 'official' monster in there!
- A Vampire Thrall cannot have both the WS hat + Fencer's Blades - only Lords have the pointage for that combo... The Helm is still a solid choice though!
- Vampire Thralls should never, ever, EVER carry the army standard... They're too costly, their stats for the cost suck and their most basic armour option is horrendously expensive.
Wight Kings on the other hand are among the game's very best battle standard bearers!
- Zombies are a waste of upto 212pts... That's enough to get your skeleton bunker for a Helm of Commandment vampire however!
- Corpse Carts don't ever count towards your core minimums... Those pts need to go into either more ghouls or more skeletons.
Besides, why spend upto 100pts on a corpse cart, when for only 2/3rd's of that cost, you can have a Necromancer who will always know the most critical spells 'Invocation of Nehek' & 'Vanhel's Danse Macabre'?!
- Grave Guard should be 30 strong and with great weapons.
- Vargulfs are fun! As is a Black Coach.
- Fell Bats make for amazing war machine hunters!
- We get a brand new monster in next month's White Dwarf!!!
Finally, wlecome to the underdog army!
ok put the helm and the WS 10 thing on ur dragon lord and have him fly about
oh and the dragon isnt that bad
most will be hitting it on 5's and ur lord on 6's
its breath weapon sucks but then so do all dragons
if i was u though i wld look at warriors of chaos as they have the best dragon and u can put a sorcerer on it or a lord
a) You'll be forced into exposing your General to everyone and their mothers!
b) The Zombie Dragon is game's worst dragon - even High Elf Fire Dragons are a better buy... His stats are just too low to shrug off all the incoming shooting/magic he'll no doubt attract, and he's actually quite squishy against even basic rank-and-files.
c) Even a moderately equiped Lord on dragon will run you the better part of 600+ pts... So, before you can include another lord, you'll need to be playing upwards of 3500pts!
d) (just to point out), Breath Weapons do not suck this edition! They've mearly been fixed so they're not insanely broken anymore!
And while the S2 of the zombie dragon's breath weapon may look pitiful, it still carries with it a solid armour save modifyer, which can be a real help against masses of medium T3 infantry...
Zombie Dragons may look cool and they seen really awsome, but with our current crappy book & 8th ed's %-based army lists, he sadly is just waaaaay too expensive to see the tabletop...
Hopefully his pts cost goes down when we (eventually) get our much needed update!
dont forget the new 8th ed a cannon ball / bolt will hit EVERYTHING on the base one cannon ball can Kill a zombie dragon AND the lord riding it so no dont take one in this edition unless you're
A) playing for gigglers and kicks
b) playing such an insane amount of points you can afford to drop 6-700 pts to a single shot.
and agreed our core just plan SUCKS! skeles are okish as bunkers Ghouls actually start to loose effectiveness in bigger hordes and zombies well not worth the paper they are printed on
and as to GG why have GW ok ok +2 S and new rules for supporting attacks yes are nice but a Better armour save + a FREE ward save as KB 6's kill anything short of monsters regardless of S or T why pay extra for GW?
The reason why you pay extra for Great Weapons is because in Warhammer, offense beats defense, pretty much every time. Allow me to demonstrate. Let's say your Grave Guard are fighting a "mirror match" of sorts against a S4/T4 unit with Heavy Armor and a Shield (Dwarf Longbeards, for the purpose of this example). Now, Dwarf Longbeards have you beat in WS, so you'll hit on a 4+. Let's break down the combat, depending on what you've picked:
Grave Guard with Shields will hit on a 4+, wound on a 4+, and the Longbeard will have an armor save of 5+, plus a parry save of 6+. That said, we'll also consider Killing Blows, where only the 6+ parry save would apply. The Longbeard in turn will hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+, and allow for an armor save of 5+, plus a parry save of 6+.
Grave Guard (Shield): 10*(1/2*1/3*2/3*5/6 + 1/2*1/6*5/6) = 100/108 + 50/72 = 25/27 + 25/36 = 1.62
Longbeards (Shield): 10*2/3*1/2*2/3*5/6 = 200/108 = 1.85
Looks like the Grave Guard loses that fight, albeit narrowly.
Now, the Grave Guard with Great Weapons would hit on a 4+, wound on a 2+, and only allow the 6+ parry save. The Longbeards would in turn hit them on a 3+, wound on a 4+, and allow for a 6+ armor save.
Grave Guard (GW): 10*1/2*5/6*5/6 = 250/72 = 125/36 = 3.47
Longbeard (Shield): 10*2/3*1/2*5/6 = 25/9 = 2.77
Well, will you look at that. The Grave Guard win the fight instead! If the choice is between beating your opponent or losing to him, I think it's a pretty straightforward deal.
"But wait", you could say, "what if the enemy is wielding a Great Weapon? Surely the protection of the shield would be better then!" Let's have a look, then.
Grave Guard with Shields would hit this enemy on a 4+, wound him on a 4+, and allow for a 6+ armor save (except the Killing Blows, which would just drop them outright). Meanwhile, the Longbeard hits on a 3+, wounds on a 2+, and only allows for the 6+ parry save.
Grave Guard (Shield): 10*(1/2*1/3*5/6 + 1/2*1/6) = 50/36 + 10/12 = 25/18 + 5/6 = 2.22
Longbeard (GW): 10*2/3*5/6*5/6 = 500/108 = 4.63
Oof. Looks like our Grave Guard just got its tail kicked by the power of Dorf Ax. Let's see how their Greatweapon-wielding brethren fare:
They would hit on a 4+, wound on a 2+, and allow for no save. The Longbeard would do the same, except he's hitting on a 3+:
Grave Guard (GW): 10*1/2*5/6 = 50/12 = 25/6 = 4.17
Longbeard (GW): 10*2/3*5/6 = 100/18 = 5.55
Still losing, but all of a sudden the margin isn't as big (-1.38 vs. -2.41). Again, the Great Weapon proves its superiority, by cutting your losses (remember that you will lose even more troops to combat resolution difference, so the extra guy you "saved" from using a shield will die at the end of combat anyway).
And this is without offensive support which we can slap on here (like the Standard of Strigos for Hatred and its correspondent to-hit increase), which is (a) much easier to obtain than defensive support, and (b) favoring the Greatweapon massively. Secondly, the access to Invocation of Nehek means that casualties mean less to you than to most of your opponents - your dudes can come back and swing again. A lot of this would be skewed pre-8th, but Step Up makes the Great Weapon a great choice (no pun intended).
tl;dr - If you want to win fights (and given that you're paying for these guys to be your elite infantry, I'd assume winning fights is important), Great Weapons are just plain better.
Last edited by rothgar13; July 5th, 2011 at 22:46.