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I am doing an un conventional army list using no grave guard no crypt ghouls and only 10 skeletons. I feel like sharing how it works with the community and am gona write the list. Its 1500 points. My heroes are Konrad von Carstein, Vampire with helm of command and forbidden lore. A necro with 2 additional necromancy spells as well as sceptre de noirot. In total my heroes are 420 points. Great thats 1080 points do whatever! 5 units of 50 zombies and a unit of 10 skeletons. So how poorly do you think i'll do also i'd like reconmedations as to which lore for the vamp. Comments are appreciated!
You're over points on your Heroes, unless that Vamp's a Vampire Lord, in which case you're spending more points on him.
At any rate, I'm not sure how well the list will even fare. Zombies are notoriously poor choices, they don't even tarpit well, with most enemies hitting and wounding them on 3's. You're going to lose combat by A LOT and then lose a lot more zombies after that. And 10 skeletons aren't exactly what you'd call a "hammer unit". Even with Konrad or another Vampire present, you're not going to put out enough wounds to win combat when your Zombies are losing so many models a turn.
If you stick with this list, go with Shadows on your Vampire, in hopes of debuffing the enemy and maybe casting Okkam's on your Skellies or Zombies. I really don't want to see you waste your money on 250 Zombies though, even if you get them on eBay. Please, please proxy this list against anyone before you commit to it. I think you'll be surprised at how badly this army goes off the rails.
Can I ask why you've limited yourself to not taking GraveGuard (only decent unit in the book right now) or Crypt Ghouls (only decent core in the book)? It just seems masochistic.
I just constantly see crypt ghoul and grave guard spams wana do something new. How many points can i spend on heroes? The skeletons were more of a bunker for the vamp. And the weapon skill hat was suppose to help with one of my zombs problems.
You have to follow the 25% limits that you see on pg 134 of the big rulebook. That means that you can only field 375pts of Heroes in a 1500pt list.
The reason that you see a lot of Crypt Ghoul and GraveGuard spam is because it's really all that VC have left until you get into their Rare slots. You can field any army list that you want- LO doesn't always make that point apparent, you can field whatever you want, nobody is forcing you to take a specific armylist. However, everyone on LO is going to tell you that your list is nowhere near competitive. VC got hit pretty hard with the nerf-bat whenever 8th came out. There are a lot of reason that this happened, but that's neither here nor there. All that matters is that VC aren't the super-powerful, super-versatile army that they used to be. There are still ways to absolutely dominate with VC (just look at UK GT results) but you have to follow a formula. Unfortunately, that 'formula' happens to involve lots of Ghouls and GraveGuard.
WS6 "Ninja Zombies" are alright, but most opponents are still hitting them on 4's. Remember, you need to have "double+1" to get the enemy to hit on 5's, so you'd need a Lord with that Helm. The trouble with Zombies is that they crumble so quickly. Yes, they're unbreakable, but they are essentially suffer double the amount of wounds that your opponent actually scored.
Take this example- 50 Zombies vs. equivalent points of Empire Swordsmen (a very average Core unit):
25 Swordsmen vs. 50 Zombies
Swordsmen strike first with 10 attacks, scoring 6.67 hits, 4.45 wounds
The Zombies strike back with 21 attacks, scoring 7 hits, 2.33 wounds, which after armor and parry-saves comes to 1.29 wounds
Now, you're foolish to include a banner in a Zombie regiment, although more other Core units do have them. You are still 5 ranks deep right now, and you killed 1 of his models so he's only 4 ranks deep. We'll assume that nobody charged. So far, you lose by 4.45, which means you lose an additional 4.45 zombies, making your total casualties for the round 8.9.
Next round is going to be a repeat of that, with him killing 4.45 Zombies, and you killing 1.29 Swordsmen. This time, he has as many ranks as you, meaning that you lose combat by 1pt, so you lose 5.45 Zombies in addition to the 4.45. Now you're down to just 3 ranks of zombies, so you lose next round by an additional +1 (-2), and lose a total of 10.9 zombies and rank of attacks. After losing that rank, you now average less than 1 kill per round, which means that you're losing by a massive 5 points on average, so that's 13.9 kills next turn.
Now, you've pinned him down for quite a few turns there, but you have to realize that Empire units are also paying for a Detachment special rule that means you'll usually be engaged to the flank during this entire ordeal as well. Basically what I'm trying to show is that while all Undead units spiral out of control once engaged in combat (unless you're winning, which is why Ghouls are preferred as core), but Zombies spiral even faster. And yes, you could cast IoN to bring back an average of 7.5 models each turn, but that means you're wasting casting attempts and dice on bringing back zombies to a combat that they can't possibly win, just to tarpit your enemy- rather than throwing damage spells to kill expensive enemy units.
This is why people field damage units like Graveguard in addition, because they can actually win combat and kill enemy units. The reason that you see Ghouls is because they're more survivable than Zombies and more lethal than Zombies, which means that although they might lose, they're losing by less. The problem with Tarpitting when you have the Undead rule, is that if you through in 5 Blood Knights into the flank of those Swordsmen and they beat you by 5pts (by killing a bunch of zombies) you lose that entire Blood Knight regiment. You don't want to put expensive units into combat alongside units that are losing severely, and admit it- that's what Zombies do all the time.
Ghouls = best Tarpit unit. You can pick up 3 regiments of 50 Ghouls for just 200pts more than your Zombies.
Graveguard = obviously better than Skeletons at sticking around as a bunker. But if you're not getting into combat (read- if you're wasting points on models just standing around) then you may as well take Skellies.
Hammer Units = you need them. Badly. And they need to be able to stand alone. The obvious three options here are the Coach, Blood Knights, and Varghulf, and possibly Wraiths. Black Knights can hammer in low point games.
I'm not trying to rip down your ideas. You may very well figure out how to make a Zombie Horde really work for you. But it's going to be a very difficult uphill battle, and it's never going to be as effective as the VC book could be. There are reasons that you see people field the types of lists that they do, and why you rarely see variance- it's usually the sign of a tried-and-true method for winning games, and the other methods usually aren't nearly as competitive.
did you factor in the WS hat for that battle?
Also you cant be the only one with an opinion someone else post :]
Well, the other problems with zombies;
a) the WS Hat only effects 1 unit at a time. A smart opponent will engage multiple units, so while 1 unit will (more likely) suffer less damage, the other unit/s will still get run over rather badly.
b) Magic isn't reliable. Sure you have abilities like 'Master of the Black Arts' and the Black Periapt to help buff your casting pool, but even the max 12 dice won't keep a zombie army going... Plus, our bound spells took a big hit when 8th came out because we now need to use PD to cast them.
Also, if you're having to spend all your dice to single-D6 cast invocation all the time to raise more zombies, your opponent is getting off quite easily because you *should* be casting nastier spells like Vanhel's Danse which allows for additional movement/charging or else can really buff undead units already in combat!
And as the Captain pointed excellently pointed out, Zombies won't ever win against anything!
Basically, the zombies opponents fall into 2 types;
- The chaff such as most other core units like empire state troops, skaven clanrats & slaves, gobbos etc... These units are typically the same cost as zombies, or else far cheaper. They also have much better stats which means that unless you're fighting either skinks or other zombies, they hit you on 3's & wound on 3's at worst! (unless they fail a fear check, at which point they need 4's and because zombies are only WS1, you still gain no advantage in return!)
- The elites which are everything else! God forbid you run into the likes of elves or the nastier core units such as chaos warriors & saurus warriors... for laughs, I've pitted 50 zombies against 10 basic chaos warriors (only shield upgrade because they must take an upgrade), and after crumbling was all said and done, not 1 warrior had fallen & only 27 zombies remained! (pts-wise that was 200pts of deadheads vs only 160pts of warriors!)
You can't ever support a combat that zombies are in, because only the most inept moron would ignore the zombies and fight the other unit... Zombies are basically 'free' combat res for your opponent, and because of how our crumbling works, your elite unit/s that are supporting will also suffer becuase of how many zombies were killed.
Necro/Zombie armies might be fun and well within the real spirit of Warhammer, but unless your opponent takes an equally 'bad' list, it's just not a viable option and you'll end up being demolished almost every game... (Hell, Daemons vs Grey Knights is a fairer fight than Zombies vs Anything, they're really that poor!)
It's not to say you can't have fun with such a list, but be aware that basically everyone is going to walk all over you untill we get a new book and the zombies get fixed. Just understand that the WS Hat and a single skellie unit with maybe a couple rare choices aren't going to add jack overall when 250+ zombies are draging everything else down!
Now to help mitiagte slightly, you could look into;
- Lore of Light and Lore of Beasts. Both have outstanding augment spells, and the signature beast spell is pretty much needed as it will raise your zombies upto the average S/T of 3. Meanwhile, light magic offers better WS/I as well as more attacks & ASF abilities.
- The new Terrorghiest monster.
- A 'Bloodbus' which is a large unit of blood knights led by a vampire lord w/Red Fury & Blood Drinker and a Wight King BSB w/drakenhoff banner. It destroys most things it hits and the lord is hard to deal with because his sword constantly heals himself and/or the unit.
:p i have most vc models and have a solid 3k list that i usually play i think i should have said that in the first place. However i also own 300 zombies that beyond raise dead i never use (i got em at a really good deal from some friends). I was just wondering if you guys had any ideas on how to make a zombie army work :p (i phrased my first post pretty poorly :/). So far it seems their is no way to make them viable makes me sad ._.