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Just really started playing fantasy, but when i compare, lets say a skeleton to an orc, you're paying double for a skellie! and if you look at the stat lines a goblin is almost better! is fear really worth about 7-9 points plus if you lose combat you lose models, and they cant march... guess it just sounds a bit expensive.
most of you guys have way more exp, do you think you're getting value for points? :hmm:
Here is a quote from the Designer notes from the guy who wrote the VC book (somewhat long):Stuff like this is just really hard to quantify, really hard. While I think maybe they got something wrong by a point or two, Vampire Counts do better then hold their own most of the time, and you can often see them placing in tournaments, so they must have gotten something right.Without doubt, the main challenge was trying to assign the correct price to the 'Undead' special rule all across the army. Let's start with an example. Without special rules a Skeleton would be far worse than any Goblin, and consequently should be cheaper. We're talking about a cost of one or two points! But then the Undead rule kicks in and suddenly the value of the Skeleton rockets up. Being Undead on the positive side means causing fear and being Unbreakable, two major advantages. The drawbacks are: no marching (if away from the General), no charge reactions, extra casualties when defeated in close combat and a chance of vanishing if the General is killed. Now the first issue is to understand if the bonuses are more important than the penalties, or vice versa? In other words: is it good to be dead?
We agreed that overall it was a bonus, and consequently it should be paid for. As normal with special rules, I charged the same value to all the infantry and a proportionally higher amount of points to cavalry, large things and characters. Unfortunately, playtesting seemed to indicate that the main penalty of being Undead, the extra wounds in close combat, was far worse for expensive Wights and characters than for cheap Zombies and Skeletons. That is quite clear to all Undead players. If you lose a fight and you have to remove three extra Zombies, you do it without a thought (you can always try and raise them back later anywayâ€¦). Your reaction is very different when you lose three fully equipped mounted Wights!
The Undead rule is proportionally less of a bonus the more powerful the Undead model is, and therefore expensive, because the main penalty (extra wounds in close combat) is more and more crippling. Also, the cheaper the model, the larger the unit you can build, so you're more likely to outnumber the enemy and, as a consequence, the usefulness of your fear is increasedâ€¦ a real conundrum. Zombies and Skeletons in large numbers always seemed a safer and better choice for Undead than expensive elite units.
Eventually I approached the problem by artificially increasing the points value of Skellies and Zombies, while at the same time I reduced the price of Wights a bit, and the price of the most expensive Undead units and characters. The list ended up with slightly underpriced Elites and overpriced Undead Core units (that is if you look at the models on their own). I'm confident, though, that the final points value better reflects their real worth on the battlefield (fingers crossed!.
Yes, the stat lines are equal to or worse than a lot of armies that pay half as much for basic troops. But as mentioned in that article, we cause fear and can never run away. Add to that the fact the we can raise more of our troops with a spell that is fairly easy to cast, and it works out that our special rules are worth the points costs. Do not expect units to hold up on their own and actually fight well, because they can't, but use the special rules we have (especially fear) and they are more than worth it.
can be raised easily an ability a living army does not have
for those points pretty good for me
Skellies arnt designed to win a battles there desgned to hold up units. Want to annoy Archeon have him charge 40 skellies and then keep raising more to keep him there.
WELL SAID, NO MORE SQUATS THEY ARE DEAD GET OVER ITOriginally Posted by artificer
Yeah, I think they're worth it. At first I didn't. But any VC player with more than a few games under his belt has experienced the joy of chasing down a much more expensive fleeing unit. I've seen zombies catch Chaos Knights. Just last night, a unit of skeletons, led by Carstein general, ran down a fleeing Slaan and Temple guard. Now that was inspiring.
Use the skelies to bother and hold up enemy units while raising more of them is cool.
Thats one of the cool things with VC's is that you have to figure them out and think! , but once you got it, the army works against any other.