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I just got through playing in a tournament at 2000pts and im pretty disheartened about Vampire Counts. After a couple months of playing I still have a losing record and the worse thing is that I just don't loose but I loose bad (massicure). My first game went great massicuring a Chaos Undivided (Archaeons army) but then I got wiped out in about 20 minutes by Lizardmen (by his turn top of 3) and again in my last game against DE which actually was going okay but I couldn't kill his stupid dragon which just owned my entire army. Basically I have a few questions and an open ask for help to improve my gaming. Im very good at 40k but can't seem to "get" fantasy. I've read the tactics on this site but besides a unit anylsis they don't say much on tactics which is my problem because to be honest I feel a little lost on the battlefield once the game starts.
1. Are skeletons worth taking? Im thinking even though ghouls can't be raised they at least seem to be able to kill the enemy. I have one 30+ skeeleton unit in combat with coldone riders and didn't inflict a single wound through 8 rounds of combat. I figure if there gonna be useless might as well go for cheaper zombies.
2.Rare choices. I have to say I felt really shafted. DE get two bolt throwers for a choice where as a banshee is one by herself and is very unrealible (5 turns to take out two bolt thrower guys or 1 turn and taking out 4 chosen knights). There wasn't alot of strength 7 weapons at the touney so im thinking of maybe taking a black coach.
3. How do you deal with big stuff? I have no clue on how to take down a dragon/stegadon/dual salamanders ect.
Any help would be appreciated. In my next list (2000pts) im thinking (roughly):
BD Count(2 cav bases) w/8 BK
BD Thrall w/7 BK
Necro lvl2 w/20 skeletons
Necro lvl2 w/20 skeletons
Dire Wolves x5
Dire Wolves x5
Dude, I feel your pain. Only after half of a year playing VC have I started breaking even on wins and sometimes winning more than I lose. But when I lose, I tend to lose big. Out of curiosity, what was your army build for the games you described?
Lizardmen can be a tough opponent. Kroxigors toss skeletons about like snapping matches. I deal with them by using a spirit host swarm of three bases. Hitting them on the flank is great as you'll get a flanking bonus, so even if you don't hurt them, you've got one combat resolution. Otherwise, I collapse two or three units on kroxes: spirit hosts, ghouls, and whatever else. Their core troops are as tough as our special troops GG, which sucks for us.
Also, I use spirit hosts to screen against salamanders and then to attack them. Salamanders are a much easier kill than kroxs. As for skinks, I hate em. Racing around the table, tossing javelins at our undead butts. But it's the poison that really hurts. I usually throw them a zombie unit to play target practice with if the opponent falls for the bait. Then I ignore them. Otherwise rush into them wolves or something, because skinks are right there with gnoblars for combat skills. I once charged a unit 16 skinks with a thrall who killed three or four and ran them down once they fled.
Lizardmen magic stinks too. It's the only army I take dispel scrolls against. Those cast anywhere on the table spells keep you from running your necromacners outside of units, but the skinks can cause that same problem. (Do an advanced search in the VC forum for lizardmen because there's a pretty sizable thread just about fighting them because I kept getting my tail whipped by them and needed help).
I've only faced a dragon once and it was a DE dragon. The player made the mistake of charging my grave guard with it. Any experienced player knows not to charge the front of a fully ranked unit with a monster. Rank bonus, standards, a wound against the rider led to failed leadership roll. And guess what, that dragon didn't run very far.
You've got a lot of black knights. This is how I set up my bd army usually:
Count with skeleton unit to help them with CR.
Thrall with 7 BK. (8 would be better for a frontage of 5 but I don't have the models)
lvl 2 necro (with skeleton or zombies)
lvl 2 necro (with GG because people are reluctant to charge GG)
Maybe drop the smaller unit of knights for GG.
I find that dire wolves work better in larger numbers. Maybe one pack of 10 or even 7-8.
Just one banshee should do the trick. If you find yourself playing in a tourney with two banshess and you come across elves with high ld or something like demons which just ignore banshees, then you've got 2 useless models. Use the points elsewhere, like for 4 fell bats which will get to those war machines by the second round. And if warmachines are mounted on a hill or tower, flyers don't suffer penalties getting up.
Persoannly, i'd drop one unit of skeletons for zombies to get the points back and use the points elsewhere too.
Ghouls are great. I'd increase them to 9 if I had the free points. I almost always field spirit hosts. They work against almost every army. They'll screen those bolt throwers, harass your enemies, deal with things like giants and monsters that don't have magical attacks.
All in all, you could use a more balanced army, unless you want a cavlary based one. Then of course be smart about where you summon troops. March block, flank, and misdirect. ALso, go for redundancy--multiple units who can accomplish the same task. I.E. don't rely on banshees for war machine hunting. Use fell bats or dire wolves--both ways give more distance and more wounds. ANd if your banshee gets popped, there's another unit on the table to fulfill the role.
Hope that helped and good luck.
Last edited by DavidWC09; May 22nd, 2005 at 07:37.
Yes, i was feeling exactly liek u when i first got VC, they sucked ass i thought, they werent the army for me i thought, no a half a year later i have an undefeated Blood Dragon Lord and an army thats lost twice since march O-o.
First bit of advice is stick your coutn and thralls with skeles and watch the kills pile up, its great if those saurus have a champion because you can honer or death those bastards and most of the time you will get an insane overkill bonus, especially with your count.
Second peice is, dont charge the front of a unit with BK screaming ancient honer vows in their face, we arent bretts... Instead use them more as a scalpal, saurus engaged with skeles, count choppin up saurus for overkill, outnumber, rank bonus, they are the gateway to the Slaan, can they hold? o look theres a group of 8 black knights coming in from the rear...
Third peice of advice is to skirmish with skinks with ghouls or wolves, i find poisoned attacks and a good stat line on ghouls makes them handy for taking out pesty skirmishers, the only time i havent had an effective skirmish battle was with poisoned wind globadiers, tohse guys are nasty.
Fourth peice would be to keep your necros in units liek u have them, either the LM ignores them and htey summon zombies to rear charge or he goes after them and forces precious saurus into a tar pit unit that keeps getting back up on his alrdy strecthed line.
As for Dragons ive fought quite a few but i find as david said they do very bad against a good rank and file unit, a rare way to take care of them would be to put a BD thrall with around 8 BK and hunt it down, BK r prtty good fighters and have S6 on the charge while i dont think i rlly need to talk about a BD thrall, if you feel a thrall insufficient you could use a count but i find he has more important things to do most of the time.
Hope it helps and i hope i didnt come of as condescending.
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Awesome, friend. I'm starting to get on a roll, so hopefully I find myself in your shoes.Originally Posted by Kale De VeinstenOr a Blood Dragon on a Winged Nightmare. Let the dragon charge a unit, even if it's a flank. Then charge it with the Winged Nightmare in turn. The flanked unit regains its rank bonus, and you have 7 or 8 attacks at str6 or better, 4 or 5 of them rerollable with the right Blood Dragon bloodline power.Originally Posted by Kale De VeinstenLike what? What do you use him for? Getting kills inside a unit of skeleton? I agree with that one, but do you use him in any other ways?Originally Posted by Kale De VeinstenShoot, it helped me, and I'm not even the person you're responding to. Thanks for the good advice.Originally Posted by Kale De Veinsten
It sounds easy there, but in reality the dragon (after me killing its rider) jumped over my units and started attacking me from behind with the breath weapon. Very effective and annoying. Also since dire wolves are weedy they usually die to stand and shoot or anything the enemy throws at them. Usually I end up using them to protect flanks or flank charge.
Also do you guys have your necromancers in units or does it depend on the enemy. Because I found my necromancers were getting chopped up pretty fast once the battle started, bit of a tough call. Because I had a necromancer shadowing a skellie unit and it got in cc and thus he became an elligible target for two bolt throwers...ugh.
That's why I recommend that you run dire wolves in larger units. They last longer and still get off a meaningful flank charge. Also, use the wolve's great movement to get inside half their charge range so that the enemy can't stand and shoot. In other words, get 8" or closer and no one will be shooting at you.Originally Posted by 311It depends on the enemy. Often I leave them in units, but they tend to bail just before combat ensues. If there are bolt throwers, just position him out of their LoS. If you want to burn the points and make him pretty invulnerable to harm, give him the cloak of mist and shadows. It's a good item for a necromancer general, but it burns a lot of points. Remember though, he can still lose wounds to combat resolution, so either leave him in a unit that's facing an enemy without magical attacks or run him in the shadows of the infantry, never touching combat. I've even left him surrounded by ghouls. True, he can't join their unit, but he can take shelter among the skirmishing formation.Originally Posted by 311
Are you still using Strigoi vampires, or have you switched to blood dragons?
Last edited by DavidWC09; May 22nd, 2005 at 08:25.
Yes they are, but don't think that means they'll kill anything. (not directly anyway)Originally Posted by 311
They're advantage over zombies is they're tougher ( a bit ) so they'll hold the enemy up for longer, so you have longer to get some support in! then you win the combat, and watch the enemy run! If you really want them to kill anything, try giving them halberds, it can sometimes work! (sometimes) :hmm: