Welcome to Librarium Online!
G'day my fine lords and ladies; I hereby present this thread to you all for use in the playing of Vampire Counts. This is to be used in whatever way you all seem fit but the idea I have behind this is...
A tactica type thing. All generals are welcome to post here any tips, tactics, unit break downs, do and don't of the armies, army themes, colour schemes, conversions and all list break downs (note - not army lists but maybe a skeleton list used to build off etc)
Well that's the idea, I hope it works. I will be watching these and any abuse of thread or things I decide that are not to be in here will be deleted without warning.
Last edited by King Ulrik Flamebeard; September 24th, 2005 at 17:24.
I am going to keep these simple and gross over the general guildlines. Please feel free to correct me or add more. Advise and suggestions are alwayts welcome.
First we need to look at VC
Immune to Pys
Heavy Hitters & Weaker Hitters
Bretonnians, The Legendary Knight Army, Has been GW Poster Boys for Fantasy.
+2 Amour Saves
Few Large Size
No Dog of Wars
Wow that is a lot pros to be tackling. Now how do we Turn those Postives into Negatives:
Lady Blessing, If they take it you go first. although to most Brets with many Calvary this is peanuts. Deploy to March Block
Lance Formation, Two approaches, Min Max, 6 boys, 3 and 3 maybe a damsel in the middle since lore of life doesn;t require LOS anyways. Or bigger block of 9-12. block of 6 are much more efficent fighting units 5 attacks 3 horse and one rank. They units goal is to tie you up or get at your flanks. Or have your whole army deloyed like this and have two block coming at you. Larger Blocks aim to break you right out, they are point sink but they are a strong hammer
Magic: with Damsels they provide great portection. They can also purchase magic restiance. Prophetess can take lore of heavens. Secound sight and Comet are extremely devastating. More often than not Magic Users will ride with knights of some forum. You cannot single them out or force them out with Changelle since you target tyhe unti and the champoin can fight instead. But again they are with Basic Knights, easy to just sweep this unit off the board
Movement: You will find Brets wiill move there maxuim Remember this is all a game of math. Decide How you want them to come at you. Use Terrain March block really really hurt them a lot.
Bretions Army that appear:
Peasent army, heavy based on Men of arms, yeomen, archers
Fllying Circus, Take a lord on a flyer to remove 0-1 Peagus Knight usually 3 unit of flyers.
All Knights: The name says it all, Take as many knights as possible go for thier throat
Erranty War: 1 paladin about 90 knights of erant usually in group of 6
On Paper they look extremely tought to beat. When playing it actaully si a lot different. The First Step to beating Brets to March Block. Since it will be very usual to play against a Bret player whom does not take the blessing. Assume you will go first and deploy your Bats on the sides, and wolves 12" of your general to stay in march range.
You will have to scarfice many units do not let this faze you. Throw away Wolves and bats to change thier angle of attack. Have them screen your blocks or go after damels or prophets. You need to Summon Speed bumps right in front of thier Knights. Try to block as many knights as possibler per summoning long lines. All these unit will do is make them take there Fear tests, and slow them down greatly. Overrun roll is only 3d6! Always Best to angle all the above 75 degree in a direct to allow you get into thier flank or have them overrunn off the table.
The Best Hitters are strenght 4 or greater. You to make sure they are always getting into combat. Challange as much as possible, The more attacks at a character is less zombies you will have to down. You more charges you have at them the less likely they will have a chance to use thier costly lances. Remember they get the strenght bonus from Charging, expection are Questing Knights.
Grail knights will carve through just abotu anything you have. IF you cannot stall them expect them to hurt you badly. Black knights and charoit are the only you have to dirtying them. Flyers will aim for your Flank and YOUR GENERAL. Support your general with a Black Coach. Remember you cannot autobreak them.
Aim for thier Weak Magic Users, You can win the Magic war, and everyone always knows how supportive our magic is. Fear will break several units, try to cauase terror, and remember a fleeing Kngihts of Realm does not grant his leadership to those with peasent duty.
Brets Moves are mostly Predicable and telegraphed to you, big expection is; not even the player who is playing erranty war can tell you what his army will do. Plan at least one move ahead, and allow your board control to win you the game. You Will have control of the board positon due to magic and most likely out numbering of units taken.
I always scarfice one third of the board and work on the middle and opposite side. I choose to deploy in more open areas against knights as terrain clogs up your position. They are seeking the one on one match up, you cannot afford to get into this trap. Our units simply cannot keep up with thier movement, therefore we cannot control that part or support it. With more units together we increase our maveriablity.
There is only one do not, That is do not allow them to charge you.
Scrap this.... Sorry!
Last edited by kmm4_01; October 6th, 2005 at 04:08.
Hey guys and gals, the tactica I started in still in the works up above. I'd appreciate any feedback on what should be covered in it. Don't feel like you have to read the whole thing. Comments on a particular section, or just what should be included, will help a lot.
I would like to question your vampire tactics used against units such as questing knights who seem soley designed to squash my undead horde from undeath to death full stop.
P.S Im lahmians and that makes it so much worse (no domination type powers)
I'll doubt I can write about everything the whole VC army in general, and I have small intelligence regarding the Army of Sylvania of the SoC (official army list), the Zombie Pirates and the just released Heinrich Kemmler's army list. The latter army lists are unofficial.
Ok here goes:
The VC army has the most variety in the Hero/Lord choices of all races. This is mainly because of the Bloodlines, a very unique system in which we are able to create a whopping 15 different Characters alone. These characters all have different abilities, strenghts and weaknesses, and advantages and disadvantages.
The 5 Bloodlines are: Strgioi, Von Carstein (generic Vampire), Blood Dragon, Necrarch and Lahmia.
If we look into the appendix (unofficial) army lists, we see all have different fluff reasons in which to choose the army list. Strigoi prefer a Skirmish army of Ghouls, Lahmians have high seats of power so prefer Skeleton and Wight hordes, von Carstein Bat Swarms, Fell Bats, Dire Wolves, Blood Dragons Wights, and Necrarchs more or less Zombies and Skeletons.
We can generically say that Strigoi are Characte-killing machines and Necrarchs spell-casters. Von Carstein Vampires are pretty much the generic type, which can equip themselves very differently every time. Blood Dragon are just way powerful, in fighting. Lahmians seem to be fast and kill things outright, before the enemy can strike (sometimes even when the opponent charges!).
The Rest of the Characters:
They're good too! Some are not used very much, such as the Wraith in particular. They are a nice and great addition for a fluffy army. Especially since they don't appear very much on the battlefield themself. The Master Necromancers aren't much used as well.
The Necromancers seem to be used a lot. They are the only hero which can cast magic without paying for a Magic Item/Bloodline (in case of Vampires; the necrarch Thrall is able to cast spells with a Bloodline). The are nice scroll caddies, and most times carry the Book of Arkhan, Staff of Damnation or the Black Periapt. The Master Necromancers are left isolated in the Lord choices. The Vampire are a must, and are as well Magic casters in a Lord choice, meaning that all Lord choices are Magic Casters (some of them even being great fighters too!), how good is that?!
The rest, Wight Lords and Wraiths, are quite nice fighters on their own. Wight Lords aren't the best, but are quite cheap. Wraiths, on the other hand, can with difficulty die. They are Ethereal, meaning the won't be harmed by pretty much everything (Magic Weapons, other Ethereals and Daemons can harm him). Nonetheless, other Hero choices are preferred over them, and the Wraith nearly never sees the battlefield. You can spot them on Black Coaches; but then counting as a Rare choice.
Well the Core is core. You just need these units. They are just damn useful too. The Core untis include Skeletons, Zombies, Bat swarms, Ghouls and Dire Wolves. Ghouls are your only Skirmishers, Skeleton and Zombie regiments which are very useful and are the real 'core'. Then we have Bat Swarms, annoying and fast flying (10'' though). Finally, there are Dire Wolves. They are fast flank attackers, and have S4 on the charge (18'' charge!!).
These include tough units, such as Grave Guard and Black Knights. Both Wights and dealy. They tend to attract missile fire from the common general most times. The Grave Guard can't be summoned back. That's why they are mainly not taken as they are a regiment. The Fell Bats are just fast. They are used to attack Warmachine crews, and bother the rear of the opponent's army. They are a real pain for the opponent, since they fly 24''! The Spirit Hosts (Ethereal) tend to be able to hold a line quite long before help arrives. The Spirit Hosts have a meager Weapon Skill of 2, so won't kill very much, and lose out in CR.
Includes Banshees, Black Coaches and Dogs of War. The Banshees are quite strong against armoured knights (Ghostly Howl attack). They are Ethereal too, so not much actually can kill them (though CR proves to be fatal). Black Coaches are, on the other hand, built for offensive attacks. They need to get the charge off, otherwise have trouble beating the opponent. S7 attacks are it's bane too. they are hard-hirring, support units though. i wouldn't use them as the main 'core' of your army; they are too expensive for that.
Its seems as though everyone has the tactics for lords and heros down so I'll list my perferred uses, gearing and unit sizes for the rest of my army.
Skeletons- As a Lahmian player I use alot of skeletons, most often basic hand-weapon/shield combos in between 20-30 size squads depending on the amount of enemy cavalry I'm anticipating, as the large units are a must to keep the knights from running straight on through but with more infantry based enemies you can afford to cut down the unit size and opt to have more units availible to flank charge, cutting the enemy CR and forcing a rout. Sometimes though I have taken a 10 man unit with full kit, spears/light armour and kept them in reserve until ION can build them up into a respectable unit size but I find that paying for a full kit on a maxed unit is a waste when you consider a skeletons primary job is to bog down enemy and force CR in our favour, either by characters/special units aiding them or by flank charges etc. The massive debate on skeletons though is spears or hand weapons, and the answer is all dependant on how large your ranks are as the first 2 ranks attacking when said ranks are only 4 wide is not a massive bonus and you'd be better of with the extra armour, but if you extend the ranks out to maybe 6 or 7 wide the extra attacks become of useful significance, however by extending your ranks outwards you cut down your maneauverability on a crowded VC battlefield and cut down on rank bonuses, so unless you have enough models in the unit to extend wide enough to get a useful amount of models in while retaining rank bonuses, spears are not recommended as with the extra attacks you may only get +1-3 in CR while with ranks you will definatly get +3 for 3 ranks plus if you have handweapon/shield your armour will be better to defend the models comprising said ranks.
Zombies- Because of my Lahmian bloodline I generally shy away from the use of zombies unless entirely necessary however I have sometimes resorted to summoning a speed bump of brain dead fools and have used summoned zombies to harass peasant archers or war machine crew. Which leads me to say the only tactic I've found useful is summoning because the last thing you want is to pass your magic test, your enemy fails his dispel, then you roll 2d6 and get 4 skeleton models where-as for zombies you get an extra 2 therefore creating a viable unit and since they are cheaper than skeletons the enemy won't get as many vic points when they squash the little bump in the road. The second use I had was againt peasant archers and warmachine crew, or basically any enemy that you enemy general cannot re-enforce with disrupting his advance while at the same time the units attacked will not receive rank bonuses which makes it harder for them to kill the zombies. They only catch, ION only has an 18" range.
Ghouls- Again since im Lahmian I don't actually own any ghouls but their use is pretty straight forward, screen in front of your army but keep them near your general because since they're "Alive" they can run and thier Ld isn't too hot, just remember to pull them back before combat because if they're in front of your army and reach combat on thier own they will most likely die and the enemy will have a free overrun into your army.
Bat Swarm- For some reason I just don't like them, I can't figure out why. Even though bat swarms have a good number of wounds and attacks the rest of the stat line is far to low to do much good against most enemies unless in the max unit size. The nearest I can see is to use them to charge a low ld enemy near the board edge in the hope that they'll fail a fear test and run screaming but because they are flyers they only have a unit strength of 1 per base and your unlikely to outnumber anyone, so I guess the best possible use is to harass enemy models like war machines that cannot defend themselves to a great extent and force your enemy general to divert forces from his battle plan or suffer the loss of artillary support. P.S Someone might come up with a better use but like I said I don't use them.
Dire Wolves- A fun and entertaining core choice. In a battle against Brittonians I charged a full strength unit of pegasus knights with only 5 Dire wolves and managed to kill a knight (two wound each) and lost 2 wolves, since we both had a unit strength of 2 for each base and I had 3 bases to his 2, he auto-ran 3d6 of the board. Not a bad display for a 50 point unit that I took to make up points. So there are a few ways of uses dire wolves that go in hand with a large a small unit size. Large units can be used to flank enemy units or pick on supporting light units because no-one really expects those cute little doggies to be able to move 18", the second use is to get a unit of 5 or so and use them solely for the purpose of negating an enemy rank bonus for a turn or 2, because they are Unit strength 2 per model it only take 3 of them to negate rank bonuses, the other use (my favourite)for small units is to hunt down wizards or small "tricky units", because of +1 st on the charge they can be formidable against units not prepared for combat and if you keep the unit size small (5 maybe) you can weave though or around enemy formations without attracting enemy attention and as fast cavalry you can reform to get through gaps in enemy units and into those wizards and such. Just remember they are vulnerable to missile fire but they are so cheap that taking out a wizard early in the game more than makes up the points spent and with such a large movement and looking like a small harmless unit arrayed next to hundreads of VC lackies they can often get away with murder.
I just wanted to know some general tactics to use agianst Tomb Kings using my Von Carstiens, like what troops are good to use agiasnt their troops. for example such and such is good for fighting tomb scorpions because something something. Your help would be much appriaciated, thanks.
Ugh, have fun. Not until I played tomb kings did I realize how people must hate us VCs raising more troops.Originally Posted by Alucard
Well, the first and obvious tactic is the same one people use against us. Kill the general.
Second, you need combat res to go your way more than ever. You want to see him crumbling as a result of CR, not you. That means smart IoNs and flanks and rears. Plenty of wolves to outmaneuver.
As for the scorpions, those are nasty. My friend uses them as assassins, sending them in after necromancers and characters. So think really hard about how you will protect your characters. Getting rid of the scorpions wasn't too bad once I got a flank involved. Or tangle up the scorpions with throw away units so you can essentially ignore them.
Have plenty of magic defense to deal with TK magic, which can really hurt.
Two units of fell bats will make quick work of any stone throwers he might have.
How I go about killing those damned Usabati? And his Hierohant