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  1. #1
    Member BloodDragon666's Avatar
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    What are the V.C. Appendix lists?

    I'm starting a v.c army
    Text Removedbut it dosnt have the appendix lists in them (i've seen them @ G.W. though) what are they?? and can i use them in a tournament?

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    Son of LO strewart's Avatar
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    You can't use them in tournies, they are basically fluff armies for each of the bloodlines. GW has said they aren't balanced, so they require opponents approval to use. Due to this fact, almost no one uses them.
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    Senior Member Ickebeebon's Avatar
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    yeah i dont recommend using any of the appendix army lists.... they pretty much suck. they are fluffy though.
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    Member Mannfred von Carstein's Avatar
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    Well, they come with an original new gameplay, since some don't use much used units (think of Wights, and Necromancers especially). Now, in the Strigoi and Blood Dragon appendix lists there aren't Necromancers; so there are not any lvl 1 hero spellcasters. The VC army needs at least one. This basically means the Strigoi and Blood Dragon appendix armies are not legal under 2000 points.

    There has been much debate if it should be allowed under 2000, or not. You can either ignore that rule, or make the leader/general a lvl 1 Magi caster.

    If you're just starting out, I would recommend just using the norma larmy lists.

    Cheers,
    -MvC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mannfred von Carstein
    This basically means the Strigoi and Blood Dragon appendix armies are not legal under 2000 points.
    they are very much legal, the appendix lists are there for a little extra spice and are just the same as special characters who you need your opponents permission to use.
    in short, they ignore the rule that you have to have a wizard as their general.

    but as you just started VC i´d recommend you start with a normal list first(as it is likely they wont be allowed in tournaments).
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    Senior Member Nell2ThaIzzay's Avatar
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    Okay, I have a question about this appendix list.

    I'm new to the game, have only gotten in 1 game, which was considered by both my friend an I to be a practice to get the hang of it, and right now are only building 1000 pt armies.

    My friend plays Skaven, and this came to my attention when I was in Games Workshop, talking to one of the guys that works there, asking him questions and stuff, and came across the Skaven appendix lists. My friend's Skaven army had an Assassin, which is Clan Eshin only, equipped with Warpstone Stars, again, Clan Eshin only, and I noticed in the Clan Eshin army list, there was no Ratling Gun, a unit he also had in his army when we played. The guy told me this was illegal, stating that if he was playing a Clan Eshin unit, and equipping it with a Clan Eshin only item, therefore making his army a Clan Eshin army, that he must field only units from the Clan Eshin list in the appendix. This was confirmed with another person at the store, who happened to be the manager. The guys also said that my friend could play the Assassin without devoting the army to Clan Eshin, but once a Clan Eshin only item or ability is used, the army is Clan Eshin army and can only use units listed in the appendix for Clan Eshin.

    I went back to Games Workshop today to get some clarifcation on the rules, because I started checking out the appendix of my Vampire Counts book. The main question I had was, since we are playing 1000 pt games, I can't have a lord, which means I can't claim a bloodline, which means, according to what I was told yesterday, I'd have to field a Necromancer's Army, which would totally change around the army I've built (at least points wise, because I can still use all the units I previously used). This time, I talked to a 3rd guy. This guy confirmed the same rule that I was told yesterday, but also said that the bloodline lists and clan lists in the back are optional. Meaning, that my friend and I would choose before the game if we are playing a basic game, just fielding units, with no specific bloodline or clan attatchments, or if we are playing an "alternative" game, claiming clans and bloodlines. If we were to play the alternative game, then we have to field units from the appendix lists according to the proper bloodline or clan that we claimed. But if we are playing a basic game, then we can field units of those clans and bloodlines, using their base stats, with no special abilities or items. Meaning that, he could not field a Ratling Gun in the same army that included an Assassin equipped with Warpstone Stars, because the Assassin with Warpstone Stars would make his army Clan Eshin, and the Ratling Gun is not on the Clan Eshin army list. However, he could field an Assassin and a Ratling Gun in the same army, assuming he does not equip the Assassin with clan specific items.

    My friend and I are planning on getting another 1000 pt game in tomorrow, and I'm hoping to have this rule cleared up by then. I thought I did have it cleared up after getting a 3rd verification on the rule from Games Workshop, but coming onto this forum here, it seems that what I was told there is not completely accurate. I'd like to be right about this, because those are 2 very powerful ranged attacks of his that I don't want to go up against, and from my limited experience, it seems tho that the Skaven have way too much good going for them with not enough drawback. But at the same time, I want to be a fair player, and I don't want to rob him of a strategy that is legal for him to use, if it is indeed a legal strategy.
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    Member Mannfred von Carstein's Avatar
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    Greetings,

    I'm glad I can help you out firstly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
    My friend plays Skaven, and this came to my attention when I was in Games Workshop, talking to one of the guys that works there, asking him questions and stuff, and came across the Skaven appendix lists. My friend's Skaven army had an Assassin, which is Clan Eshin only, equipped with Warpstone Stars, again, Clan Eshin only, and I noticed in the Clan Eshin army list, there was no Ratling Gun, a unit he also had in his army when we played. The guy told me this was illegal, stating that if he was playing a Clan Eshin unit, and equipping it with a Clan Eshin only item, therefore making his army a Clan Eshin army, that he must field only units from the Clan Eshin list in the appendix. This was confirmed with another person at the store, who happened to be the manager. The guys also said that my friend could play the Assassin without devoting the army to Clan Eshin, but once a Clan Eshin only item or ability is used, the army is Clan Eshin army and can only use units listed in the appendix for Clan Eshin.
    Well, if you look into the VC army book, you see some Magic Items are also Character specific. But when you take them, does that make them appendix list armies? NO! It doesn't ! It only means that the Vampire, who takes that Magic Item, is one of the Bloodlines who can take it (sometimes it happens that a Magic Item can only be taken by Blood Dragons and Von Carsteins). But it doesn't mean it immediately becomes an appendix list. When it does become an appendix list, is when you see one of the units (which aren't available in a normal army list) in there. For the Blood Dragon appendix list are those Skeleton Bowmen, and for Strigoi for example Charnel Guard and Strigany. if you review the army list, you might see that Black Knights and Grave Guard are Core in the Blood Dragon Vampire army. This also means it is a appendix list.

    This would be the same with Bloodline Powers; if a Von Carstein takes the Wolf Form Power, does that make the list an appendix? Again, NO! Otherwise you would always end up with appendix army lists.

    Now, I'm not too sure how it goes with the Skaven. But I think, from your post, it is the same as with Vampire Counts. It, off course, depends on what they mean with 'Clan Eshin only' in the Magic Items list. If there is any paragraph detailing if a character takes such a Magic Item with 'Only' in it's description, then I think the GW employees are correct. Then again, what is meant with Clan Eshin? The appendix list or just the Characters?

    What do you actually mean with the Assassin being Clan Eshin only? Do you mean the Eshin Triads? As far as I know of, an Assassin is trained for and from Clan Eshin, but taking him would not make the list apendix Clan Eshin, nor the Magic Item Warpstone Stars.

    UNLESS, the last option, could be that the appendix lists get extra Magic Items. And if that item is in there, and not in the common Skaven Magic Items list, it would mean the list has to be appendix Eshin, yes.

    But I'm more or less convinced that Warpstone Stars are in the Magic Items list in front of the book, with the other Magic Itams. Which in case means that is a regular army list.

    There is 1 confusing option, which can be done if an army has appendix lists. Let's take an example for that 1, and it is Skaven Clan Skryre.

    First off, you could take a regular list, tooled up as much as possible to make it the most Skryre the troop choices permit. So a 2000 points list would include Grey Seers and Engineers, Ratling Guns and Warplighting Cannons, Poisened Wind Globadiers and Jezzails. These are all more or less associated with Clan Skryre, but that doesn't make it an appendix Skryre list!

    The second option, is to definantly make it a Clan Skryre appendix list. In that cae you need to take the appendix list in the back before yourself to choose units from. The Lords will probably only be Grey Seers or so, but they can still take Magic Items which are in the front of the book. The troops are more aimed at Clan Skryre, and some units may be Core instead of Special. Some new units may be added, and that's it. The appendix list's only difference is that there are new units (associated with Clan Skryre), and that original units be other Troop choices (as in a unit is in the regular army list Special, it then becomes Core in the appendix list, and vice versa. Also with Rare).

    That's it basically, and no Magic Items confusion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
    The main question I had was, since we are playing 1000 pt games, I can't have a lord, which means I can't claim a bloodline, which means, according to what I was told yesterday, I'd have to field a Necromancer's Army, which would totally change around the army I've built (at least points wise, because I can still use all the units I previously used).
    Well, same thing here basically. You can claim a bloodline, but in regular army lists it would have no use if it consists of no Vampire characters. Popular choice in 500 point armies, for example, only include Necromancers. You could say it is Von Carstein or Blood Dragon, but it has no use at all! Only if you include a Vampire, be it a Thrall, Count or Lord, you have to state what Vampire it is, so it can take the specific Bloodline powers, Magic Items and even get free bonuses as given in the AB on page 52. It does in no way change the army list around. An army list, under 2000 points, which doesn't have Vampires does not have to state it is of any Bloodline, since there is no use.

    See it this way:

    regular army list: An army list with in it any characters provided in the regular army list (for VC in this case page 62 and 63 of the A. If there are Vampires included, the player has to announce it's Bloodline, and can take it's associated Bloodline Powers, and can take associated Magic Items only for that Bloodline (which will NOT make the army list appendix in any way). The player needs to keep track of the extra's free powers granted for the Vampires on page 52 of the AB, and use them in game (or not , but it only works good for you.).

    appendix army list: An army using the army list provided in the back. It utilizes it's specific characters (in case of the VC appendix army lists, it is obvious you can't take a Strigoi Count in a Lahmia appendix army, or even in a regular army list.) . The army list includes new units not used in the regular army list, provided they are associated to the Bloodline and fluff. In addition, the appendix list changes some Troops' Slot (eg, Black Knights are Special in regular army lists. In Blood Dragon appendix lists, they become Core).

    I'm glad I could help you. If you have more questions, you could always visit the forum I provided in my signature.

    Cheers,
    -MvC

  9. #8
    Senior Member Nell2ThaIzzay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mannfred von Carstein
    Well, if you look into the VC army book, you see some Magic Items are also Character specific. But when you take them, does that make them appendix list armies? NO! It doesn't ! It only means that the Vampire, who takes that Magic Item, is one of the Bloodlines who can take it (sometimes it happens that a Magic Item can only be taken by Blood Dragons and Von Carsteins). But it doesn't mean it immediately becomes an appendix list. When it does become an appendix list, is when you see one of the units (which aren't available in a normal army list) in there. For the Blood Dragon appendix list are those Skeleton Bowmen, and for Strigoi for example Charnel Guard and Strigany. if you review the army list, you might see that Black Knights and Grave Guard are Core in the Blood Dragon Vampire army. This also means it is a appendix list.

    This would be the same with Bloodline Powers; if a Von Carstein takes the Wolf Form Power, does that make the list an appendix? Again, NO! Otherwise you would always end up with appendix army lists.
    Well, this is actually exactly what the people at GW told me, is that taking the bloodline powers, and items, and claiming a bloodline, makes the army an appendix list army.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannfred von Carstein
    Now, I'm not too sure how it goes with the Skaven. But I think, from your post, it is the same as with Vampire Counts. It, off course, depends on what they mean with 'Clan Eshin only' in the Magic Items list. If there is any paragraph detailing if a character takes such a Magic Item with 'Only' in it's description, then I think the GW employees are correct. Then again, what is meant with Clan Eshin? The appendix list or just the Characters?

    What do you actually mean with the Assassin being Clan Eshin only? Do you mean the Eshin Triads? As far as I know of, an Assassin is trained for and from Clan Eshin, but taking him would not make the list apendix Clan Eshin, nor the Magic Item Warpstone Stars.

    UNLESS, the last option, could be that the appendix lists get extra Magic Items. And if that item is in there, and not in the common Skaven Magic Items list, it would mean the list has to be appendix Eshin, yes.

    But I'm more or less convinced that Warpstone Stars are in the Magic Items list in front of the book, with the other Magic Itams. Which in case means that is a regular army list.
    Well basically, my friend has said that his Assassin is a Clan Eshin model, and being unfamiliar with his units, I assume that to mean his Assassin is a Clan Eshin model in the same way that Vampire Counts and Vampire Lords are attatched to a specific bloodline in the Vampire Counts army. And he has said that his Warpstone Stars are a Clan Eshin only magical item, in the same way the Asp Bow is a Lahmian Vampire only magical item. So what I assume this to mean is that he must pick a clan, as I pick a bloodline, and any clan specific models he has up must all match up in the same clan. And as I stated earlier, the people told me earlier that a clan specific army, or a bloodline specific army, require the appendix army lists to field. Which is where the confusion comes in.

    Now it's been made clear to me on this board, in this thread and another, that the appendix lists are not any kind of required, and I was midinformed by 3 different people at Games Workshop, which is kind of disoncerting, considering as we are new to the game, we are kind of counting on Games Workshop to help us learn the details when we have questions about the rules.

    Now my last question relates to this here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannfred von Carstein
    There is 1 confusing option, which can be done if an army has appendix lists. Let's take an example for that 1, and it is Skaven Clan Skryre.

    First off, you could take a regular list, tooled up as much as possible to make it the most Skryre the troop choices permit. So a 2000 points list would include Grey Seers and Engineers, Ratling Guns and Warplighting Cannons, Poisened Wind Globadiers and Jezzails. These are all more or less associated with Clan Skryre, but that doesn't make it an appendix Skryre list!
    Does that mean that he does in fact have to choose one clan to field units from, and must keep them consistant, NOT with the appendix list, but just with making sure each clan specific unit is from the same clan? Meaning for example, he could not field an Assassin and Ratling Gun in the same army, seeing as tho the Assassin is Clan Eshin and the Ratling Gun is Clan Skryre?

    Or is this just, some people prefer to make clan-themed armies, but it is in no way a requirement?
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    Son of LO strewart's Avatar
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    Yes, it is just themed. You can take an assassin and a ratling gun in the same army.

    Well, this is actually exactly what the people at GW told me, is that taking the bloodline powers, and items, and claiming a bloodline, makes the army an appendix list army
    Think about that logically for a moment... The appendix lists require opponents approval, a Vampire must have a bloodline, so if what you are saying is correct the Vampire Counts army could never field Vampires without opponents approval? Now that would suck.. I think you may have misinterpreted what they said.
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    Senior Member Nell2ThaIzzay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strewart
    Think about that logically for a moment... The appendix lists require opponents approval, a Vampire must have a bloodline, so if what you are saying is correct the Vampire Counts army could never field Vampires without opponents approval? Now that would suck.. I think you may have misinterpreted what they said.
    No, because I specifically asked about that too... and the response from the guy working there was:

    The "alternative" wording in the paragraph explaining the appendix meant alternative to the basic game, in his definition, basic game being from the regular army lists, no bloodlines, no clans, etc...

    He defined the "opponent's approval" as both players deciding whether this game was going to be a "basic" game, or an "alternative" game, using bloodlines, or clans, or what have you. And using bloodlines, and clans, or whatever else, required you to field only from the appendix list.

    This is why I was so confused last night when I was asking you about this situation, strewart, because I was told flat out by 3 different people at Games Workshop, including the store manager, that to use bloodlines and clans, we must use the appendix list from the back of the book, as that was the "official" list to go off of when playing those types of games, and the "opponent's approval" merely meant an agreement between both players that it would be a game involving bloodlines.

    Anyways, thanks to everyone's help on this forum, I was able to find the truth behind the matter, and how we were originally playing was the correct way. The guys at Games Workshop just put me through a frustrating weekend of trying to find the truth on the ruling over absolutley nothing, considering we were playing the right way (regarding that particular rule) from the get go.

    And, needless to say, his Skaven army completely slaughtered me tonight Although the fact that I failed every single Invocation of Nehek attempt during the game surely didn't help my cause much.
    Last edited by Nell2ThaIzzay; December 5th, 2005 at 10:03.
    Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos

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