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Greetings. This is my first post and I am looking for assistance. I am a Skaven player and dear friend of fellow board member and VC player Nell2ThaIzzay. It may be ironic that my first post is on the VC board looking for advice not for Skaven but for VC.
You see, Nell has had a string of losses against me and I am afraid he is getting very discouraged, so, I ask advice from those who know the VC best.
Here are some suggestions I have given him to better utilize his strengths against my army.
1. He is intent on creating as many new skeleton units as possible. This is a good strategy, but I feel he should be devoting the first few turns to increasing the size of his already existing units. First, because the spells are easier to succeed (You don't need a minimum of 5). Second, they are basically free units, no victory points for killing them. Third, they allow him to have a unit strength in a unit that outnumbers one of mine by turn 2 or 3. This last point is extremely important because it makes my skaven unit auto-break if I lose combat by any margin.
2. Breaking just a single unit should be the goal. As a skaven player, panic ruins my army. Break one unit and my army flees. In order to accomplish this flanking is the key. The VC and TK have the unique ability to create units anywere within 18" of the caster. I suggested that he charge the front with a unit of skeletons, then cast a new unit to the flanks or possibly the rear and cast dance macabre or book of arcon the unit. This charge not only makes my units take a panic test, but eliminates all my ranks. This is tantamount to a broken unit.
3. Diversify the army. I feel Nell needs a unit that can be placed away from the main army and that can flank. I think the DireWolves would be perfect for this. Again to reach the flanks, wolves seem perfect for this (any flier should work too). Also a swarm would help to soak up missle fire so they may be an option.
4. Lastly, protect his general and necros. Nell likes to play his necros and general alone, and I say this is flawed. Especially with the general, most of his casters should be protected by a unit. This comes with risks, like challenges, but he can always accept with a champion. I think it just takes smart placement and smart charges.
So, now that I got that out of my system, I ask for help. Point #3 does bring risks, what can he do to protect his necros if they get into combat? Is my advice sound? Thank you all for your eye, and good day.
The advice seems mostly sound to me ^^
As for his character choices, what does he play? If his General is a Necromancer instead of a Vampire, giving him the Cloak of Mist and Shadows or a Ward save is of great importance.
Also, the two best ways to run mages are, IMHO, keeping them in units or just behind the battleline. This way they aren't in danger of being in a unit that goes poof, but have the option to do so should a Grey Seer Skitterleap an Assassin/Chieftain near him. Of course, if you're playing Clan Eshin, he's screwed due to you being able to bamf an Assassin directly into a melee.
As for utilizing Swarms, well... At least not Spirit Hosts if you have a huge amount of Skryre gadgets.
Anyway, it is rather hard to give much concrete advice without seeing typical lists from both of you.
Use Light, Beasts, Metal instead of Heavens
NecroLords: Use at least one Death Mage
Brets: Use Peasants&Damsels
Skaven: Don't use Skryre SAD
I guess more info would help. We are playing under 2k points and he plays necrarch. He usually runs minimum 2 necros with a thrall necrarch or wight. He has 2 regiments of skeletons with either 1 reg of zombies with banshee or a black coach. He also has a regiment of 5 black kngihts.
I use a balanced army of skyre, eshin, and either moulder or pestilence. As far as heroes go, I always use at least 1 warlock engineer, 1 chieftan as my general and battle standard, and either another engineer or an assassin, depending on my mood. I usually have 2 regiments of 25 clanrats, 20 unit of slaves, 17 unit of stormvermin, 2 warpfire throwers, 1 ratling gun, and about 3 ratswarms. This is a 1250 point army. I sometimes switch my army around with ogres, a warp lightning cannon, sometimes I substitute in a unit of plague monks with plague censer bearers, but that only comes with high armor guys.
Well thats the lists we play with currently. I know he is going to buy further models so perhaps advice including other models woud be great. Thanks.
As the player in question, I guess I'm the one best to tell you my army lists and such.
I have played with a lot of different army lists, but most with the same theme:
-2 Skeleton regiments of 20
-Banshee or a Black Coach
It's been only recently that I got myself some Black Knights and have been utilizing them. I've also fairly recently decided to use a Necrarch Vampire Thrall instead of a Wight Lord or a Wraith. I have heard many people on this website and others saying that a Necrarch Thrall is a bad choice, but I've liked the element that the Necrarch Thrall has provided me. And just after my last game, I decided to add a 2nd Necrarch Thrall to the list, so my most recent army list looks like this:
*Vampire Thrall - Necrarch
-Nehekara's Noble Blood
*Vampire Thrall - Necrarch
-Nehekara's Noble Blood
-Level 2 Wizard
*2x Skeleton regiments (20)
-Both w/ Standard Bearer & Champion
-1 w/ Light Armor
*1x Zombie regiment (20)
*1x Black Knight regiment (5)
-Standard Bearer, Champion, Banner of the Barrows
And yes, we are playing under 2000 points, 1250 to be exact.
In our last match, I followed most of the advice that Jovan listed here, except #3, considering I don't have any wolf or swarm models currently.
But I placed all of my characters with units this time around. My mounted Thrall with the Black Knights, my foot Thrall with my main battle regiment of Skeletons (the regiment with hand weapon, shield, and light armor), and my Necromancer general was with a unit of Skeletons not meant for combat (not equipped with anything other than a standard bearer and champion), but for protection of the Necro. And I used the Lore of Death with the Necro which gave me some damage spells, while my Thralls both had Invocation of Nehek which I used to add to my battle regiment of Skeletons, as well as raise Zombies in the flanks when I had the oppourtunity. My Banshee also went off hunting out his lone units like his Warpfire Throwers.
This time around, I was able to come out successful. Now hopefully I can put together the right ingredients to keep the success going.
Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos
Jovan's advice is pretty solid.
When I play Skaven, I keep in mind a few things. Warp cannons can only flee. So what do you do? Fell bats or dire wolves! Run that bugger right off the table. If my opponent responds by surrounding the unit with jezzails or some such, then I bait the cannon with bats, draw the jezzail fire, and ignore it.
Somewhere in the middle of those rats is a pile of points. It's just hard to see. Where's the chieftan camped out? WHere are the magic users? Those are the units I target.
And you know a great VC item for playing Skaven? The ROd of Flaming Death. I ran one of my Skaven opponent's one meaty unit right off the table. Even with their leadership/rank rules, they'll fail a test now and then.
Split his forces. Don't get tangled up in the mob of rats. Summon units to march block one side of the army and not the other. Summon a unit so that slaverats can't ignore them but to charge them would mean jamming up some other part of the army.
Flank, flank, and flank. Remove ranks and those rats will be running for cover.
As for your list Nell2ThaIzzay, I still don't like the thralls. It's cool that you're doing something different, but there are much more effective characters for VCs. If you want something not many VC players use, then try a wraith. Terror matters a lot to Skaven. One of those units will fail a test, and once that unit fails, dominos.
Drop the skeletons with spears. With the points, buy dire wolves, ghouls, and fell bats. Dire wolves flank, hunt jezzails or ratling guns, and cause problems deep in enemy territory. Just remember, they're soft targets, so keep them safe or start them in bigger packs until they see action. Ghouls are one of our best units. They screen missile fire well, but two poisioned attacks and T4 can do a lot. Use them to flank, take out skirmishers, and go for ratling guns. Fell bats do what flyers do. March block, eliminate war machines and the like.
Something else you can do is use small units of zombies to screen your main units. A line of ten zombies will screen two units of skeletons from the worst missile fire, which leads to another point. Close to combat quickly. Against Skaven, you can still be shot, but at least it will be randomized.
Anyhow, there are plenty of tricks out there. Read through the magic items again and capitalize on strengths, which are a-plenty in the VC list.
Well, I'm not doing so much because it's different than what others do, so much as the Thrall kind of fits perfectly into my game plan.Originally Posted by DavidVC04
The arguement I've heard against the Necrarch Thrall is that it costs 45 points to make him a level 1 Wizard (needing Nehekara's Noble Blood to do it). That's all well and good, and on paper, the Necromancer would probably be the better buy.
But the way I see it is this: If I use that Thrall as any other bloodline, I don't get magic from him at all. And a Necrarch Thrall is cheaper than a Necromancer, and has more combat than a Necromancer. Yes, I could use a Wraith or a Wight Lord if I'm looking for combat power, as though their stats aren't as good as even a Necrarch Thrall, they can get armor and stuff to help protect them. But again, no magic.
My Thralls, at least in the one game that I used them, were perfect for what I needed. The Necrarchs have better combat stats than any other unit in my army (offensivly) so I obviously want them in combat. I put them in my main offensive units (a mounted Thrall with my Black Knights, and my foot Thrall with my unit of Skeletons equipped with light armor) so that I have no fears of charging with that unit, then I also have a wizard who can cast an Invokation of Nehek behind the unit I just charged, and on the next turn, get a rear charge that can cause a panic test and make the unit flee.
If I put Necros in those units instead of Thralls, they are going to die off easier, as they don't have the combat stat line of a Thrall to protect it. And the Thrall, instead of a Wight or a Wraith, gives me the ability to summon behind enemy lines, while my general Necro sits back in a not-meant-for-combat regiment of Skeletons casting some damage spells from the Lore of Death.
I guess I shouldn't get TOO ****y about this strategy, as I've actually only used the 2 Thrall list once, and though I won with it, it's still only 1 win.
I'm looking to probably get some Ghouls as my next addition to my army, but I don't have any now, and my financial situation isn't really in a position where I can go out and buy new units right now, so I pretty much gotta work with what I have, which is 2 Necrarch Vampires (1 mount, 1 foot), 5 Black Knights, about 64 Skeletons, 22 Zombies, a Wraith, Wight Lord, Banshee, Black Coach, and 2 Necros (1 mount, 1 foot)
The Wight Lord I haven't had much success at all using. The Wraith I kind of like, but again, haven't had the best of success using. My best success has come when using some kind of combination of Thralls and Necros.
Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos