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My friend's have the two above mentioned armies, and I need advice on how to hold my own against them. I haven't actually played the ogres yet, but from what I've heard and seen, these are the prevalent disadvantages:
-Small sized units
-Need to get the charge
-High speed but large bases mean tough manuverability
-Low Armor saves
-Insert more here
And the advantages against my vc would be such:
-Immune to fear
-Good in CC
-Immune to killing blow(but wights would probably still be strong)
Does anyone have experience playing against them, what units/bloodlines do you run. I've heard ethereal and terror are good aproaches, as well as bats.
On to Chaos. My friend plays an undivided mortal army. He sticks his general in a unit of chosen knights undivided. He runs a exalted champ on disc(tzeentch), a exalted champ of khorne mounted with a unit of khorne knights, and a sorceror of slaanesh I think. The other units are the common stuff. Maurauders, warriors, maurauder horsemen, warhounds, and screamers. I realize that a lot of his points are in characters, a weakness, but also they are hard to kill. His other units are also hard to destroy with what I have, I assume I should get GG to help.
-High points in characters
-Different marks make them adaptable, many times immune to fear
-Good magic Items
Same as Ogres, advice, tactics, what you would run. Thanks.
well with his choas his lord is not immune to autobreaking of fear, so if you win and outnumber they run, although unlikely since chosen knights are fin strong.
the ogres are a different storry, they always do reallly well against me, fear doesnt work and there characters can kill your characters just as well as they can kill zombies. your general should kill off theirs, hard but you should have the advantage in (in) and (ws). I dont like playing ogres with vc, they are meant to kill rank and file units, and exept gnoblars our units lose alot of their strangths. If you can draw considerit a success.
Originally Posted by laughingman
Nah Ogres just need to be dealt with differently.
First remember they are not immune to terror so the Hell Banner and Wraiths can be useful
They have pretty average Ld so banshees are useful.
Etheral troops in general will help you.
My Plan then would be a classic VC one hold and decimate.
The Holding part is fairly simple two or three units of zombies surge foward and engage the Orge regiments make sure they are either big enough to stick around or you have plenty of magic to keep them alive (well in a sense) and well.
Against certain units your spirit Hosts can be invaluable as they can't be damaged.
The fun part comes with the decimating. A solid unit of Black Knights should be moving around the flank ST6 hit blows on the Flank charge should be enough to roll up his flank.
Remember you will have the advantage of numbers don't be afraid to send hoards and hoardes of expendable Zombies his way while your black knights get in position.
A few Dire Wolf regiments could be useful to get behind the enemy but be careful because they are very vulnerable.
Units I would avoid.
Skeletons-They just won't cut it against the strong tough Orges use zombies instead.
Grave Guard- You know when I say Grave Guard should be avoided then there must be a reason (normally I would advise taking 30, regardless of the situation). Basically look at their pros and how they are countered by Ogres Killing Blow-doesn't work. Fear-Doesn't Work Heavy armour-Won't be as effective.
Invest the points in Black Knights instead as they have a higher St and More Armour and are quicker.
Fell Bats/Batswarms- Niether will last long in their normal role and are too expensive anyway,
That said you might want to consider a small unit of fellBats in the role of a march Blocker.
Ghouls- I am not convinced that they will be too useful in this situation given their lack of armour and the fact that they can break. That said their poisioned attacks could be nasty.
Blackcoach- I just think the model and background is stupid.
As for which Bloodline to take I would go for either Blood Dragons to maximise the effect of you Blackknights or I would go for a magic maxed out Necrach army and dominate the magic phase your opponent will be swimming in zombies in no time.
Basically then its important not to be imtimidated by the Ogre army you should run the game don't dwell on the fact that you don't have the normal advantages available to you such as fear instead change your tactics accordingly.
FOR the record: I have found the Zombie Hoard hold and decimate tactic works especially well against opposition who are planning to run a straight fight as it is failry easy to counter by closing down the magic phase or going for the best VC units as quickly as possible, that said you might want to consider it against the Chaos army as well.
Last edited by Visitor Q; May 5th, 2006 at 11:41.
Thanks for the replies, I think that yes, a necrarch horde would work, but it would also have none of the bang! necessary to win it. I think maybe if I did BD I would do a count, thrall, wraith, and necro. That way I would still have more power dice than him, even if not by much, and I would have more dispel dice depending on how I equip my guys. My main problem is I don't have the models to do a horde, or even a BD. If you look at my recent posts on the VC Army list forum thats about as much as I have. As for chaos, I have managed to kill those knights through size and cr before, but it's not an easy task to get there. Chaos is the bigger problem becuase he is the better player, the guy who plays ogres is scatterbrained and focuses on the wrong things. Getting the flanks on the Ogre player is a good idea, but he has yheetees and small units of bulls and leadbelchers to defend them. I guess I should play him first to see what to expect huh.
A nechrach army wouldn't have the bang in terms of characters but it would definitly have the power dice necessary to dominate the magic phase. I would go for a nechrach army simply because an Ogre army can deal with uber characters with its own super characters but it can't deal with magic. If you don't have the models thought thats fair enough.
I would probably play a necrarch army anyways, but a few questions first. Terror only causes fear effects when the enemy has fear right? Also, with the talon of death, does that add to CR?
My main units are normally skeletons, I have 60 models of those, and only 20 or so zombies.
I have had very good success with Grave Guard againsts Ogre bull units. The only regular who plays Ogres where I play uses Iron Fists on all his bulls, and thus loses the armour pen of the ogre clubs. Thus the large armour save, ranks, and decent hitting power of the GG has always won it for me. I send a unit of fell bats to march block the general, swamp him with zombies to kill, and proceed to crush the rest of his army with GG. I also use Strigoi bloodline which does wonders in killing ogres (5 str 6 hits, re rolling misses off my count) but I really have to watch out for Iron breakers or his characters as they will handle a vampire quite well.
As Ogres don't have the best WS around, the Cursed book might be an idea.
I like the strigoi idea.
Anyway you are right about the effects of terror (it basically counts as fear) and I believe the Talon of Death doesn't count for CR
I wouldn't take the cursed book, my main units are zombies and skeletons, so it would just mean they would hit on 4s not threes, which doesn't seem like as much of a change as say 4 to 5.
Percentage wise its the same difference surely?