Welcome to Librarium Online!
I desperatley need some help on how to use these damned Vampire Counts
I'm a fairly new player overall, although my friend and I have been playing for probably... eh I dunno, 6 - 8 months or so. But in that time when we play, my success rate is very minimal.
First and foremost, I'd just like to say, I'm not a power gamer. I'm not looking for an uber-leet army list that can demolish any player I go against. I play because the game is fun. I enjoy the atmosphere, the fantasty setting, and I really enjoy playing the Vampire Counts. They are a fun army, that role play wise, fits perfect with the type of characters and fantasy that I love. This is the ideal army for me when it comes to games like this, either table top war games, RPG's, RTS's, whatever.
Unfortunatley, it's hard to enjoy the game and have fun when you have the luck I do. And unfortunatley, though I can be a good sport, I'm also easily frustrated, and my huge lack of success is starting to get to me, and I know it's bringing down the enjoyment of the game for my friend as well. I feel bad about how frustrated I can get over this game, but it's hard when I feel helpless everytime our armies get into battle.
I've been on these boards, and the WarSeer forums, off and on during my time with Warhammer, and I have picked up some very good tips from people on both forums. I have a much better understanding of my army, how it works, it's strengths and it's weaknesses. But unfortunatley, that knowledge of my army doesn't translate so well into success on the battlefield.
I do admit I have a pretty limited selection of models, considering my financial situation, I can't just go out and buy all the models that I want. But without turning this into an army list thread, I've played mainly 1500 pt. games consisting of a Necrarch Thrall, 2 Necros, 2 Skeleton regiments, a Zombie regiment, some Black Knights, and a Banshee. I've recently gotten some more models, some Ghouls, and some Grave Guard, and my friend and I finally stepped into 2000 point games the past couple days. We've done 2, one which I won pretty decicivley, although it was a major comeback, from what looked to be a for sure defeat, and tonight, where I had to go back to my usual ways and give up by turn 3 because everything looked so helpless (it was also late... if we continued our game the full way, we would have been playing until after 3AM). My 2000 pt. army is essentiall a Necrarch Count, Wight Lord, 2 Necros, 2 Skeleton regiments, 1 Grave Guard regiment, Black Knights, Ghouls, and a Black Coach.
The problem is... when I play the game, I feel that my army is underpowered. Not because I don't have the proper models, but because this army just can't hold it's own against the other armies of Warhammer. We've got some great abilities in fear, being unbreakable, and the like, but with that come some HUGE drawbacks, such as our combat res casualties, and such. I've heard people talk about Vampire Counts like they are TOO overpowered, and I must say, I can't see it. I look at my friend, who plays Skaven and Lizardmen. I see the Skaven low leadership, and how it's negated with a Strength In Numbers. Their ranged attacks, that although do have a chance of blowing up, more often than not are automatic successes. I see the Lizardmen with the Cold Blooded rule that makes them pass probably 85%+ of any leadership tests. And I see the Vampire Counts; we cause fear and are unbreakable, but have really bad combat troops, die off quickly due to combat resolution, can't march unless within 12" of the general, and the only penalty for a general's death, seeing the rest of the army crumble in his absence.. I see loopholes for other race's drawbacks, but ours are devistating.
I'm just hoping for some advice that I can use to help me have a better time enjoying this game. That doesn't mean solely winning. But it means not just watching my armies fall helplessly during the 2nd and 3rd turns of the game. I'm hoping that there's more to it than just models. I do plan to eventually get more and more models to expand my army and give me more options in games, but at the same time, that's going to take me awhile, and I'd hate to not be able to enjoy this game in the meantime between now and getting those models.
So in the end, what advice do I need to strengthen my army? To make the most of what I have? Obviously, it can't just be the army. They wouldn't make an army that was just so underpowered that it couldn't compete. Maybe Lizardmen and Skaven are just really bad armies for the Vampire Counts to face? I don't play against other people, so I have no experience against other races. Or maybe I just suck that badly, and no matter what armies and tactics I field, I'm just gonna lose anyways
You can ask me any questions you need to better understand how I play and such, if it helps. But any help that I could get would be most appreciated. I really enjoy this game, it's great. But it's not fun when every game is the same routing that I face over and over again. It makes me frustrated, and my frustration brings down the level of enjoyment for my friend too. And that makes me feel bad.
Thanks in advance.
Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos
Imagine the poor forces of khemri, they have all the undead drawbacks but they can't march at all!
Unfortunately for you both LM and skaven are very tough to beat. It doesn't help that skaven are one of the most powerful armies in the game
Have you considered swarms? VC have spirit host and bat swarms available to them, i would make full use of this by taking a large unit of both. Bat swarms are great as they block LoS which not a lot of other swarms do.
Undead are a hard army to play, so try not to get too down
How many Grave Guard do you have? These guys should be winning their combats. make sure you have enough to do this. 25 and Banner of the Barrows is a good combination.
How many Black Knights do you have? These guys can't do a headlong charge unless there are about 10 or more. Use them as reserves or in the end game for flank attacks.
Zombies buy loads of zombies they are a great tar regiment for holding up the best the enemy has to offer.
Skeletons- Bit more tricky to use especially if you are using smaller units of 20 or so, consider making these units 25-30 minimum and arming them with hand weapons and shields for survivability.
Wolves- Dire Wolves are great for a variety of roles primarily flank attacks and hunting solitary characters or even war machines give thought to investing in these guys.
Fear is all about the auto break hard to achieve against the skaven but not impossible. A large units of zombies or skeletons followed by a flank attack will break them.
Against Skaven I would attempt to hold their center and work one or both flanks with magic your black knights and ghouls. (and wolves once/if you get them).
The same is true with the Lizardmen their cold blooded rule won't help them against an auto break.
This is a hassle but if you deploy tight then in the first turn everyone can march scattering outwards with your fastest units on the flank. Actually having this restriction means your fastest units don't rush too far ahead. In other words look on the bright side and see it as a good way of keeping the line of your army intact.
This simply shouldn't be an issue. If he is a Blood dragon or Strigoi he should be hard ennough to take on all comers if is a Necrach he shouldn't be in any combats that could see him dying.
As you no doubt know the key to winning is maximising you strenghths and minimising your weaknesses and vice versa with the enemy army. As a Necrach army your strength is magic, make sure you dominate the magic phase by dominating the magic phase and a few early uses of the Invocation of Nehek you can also dominate the numbers game.
Your weakness is strong characters given your lack of armour and weapons. This means you units won't have especially good support in close combat and will be vulnerable against enemy characters. The solution to this is to tie up the enemies decent regiments/characters (often the decent regiments have the good characters in them making your life easier). You can tie up such regiments with skeletons and ideally zombies remember to boost these regiments with new summonings every magic phase because they will be losing combat. Meanwhile your Grave Guard and Black Knights target the weaker regiments.
Quite a large Edit sorry about that we are all posting at the same time!
Last edited by Visitor Q; June 7th, 2006 at 10:55.
I do have some Spirit Hosts... 3 models to be exact. I was thinking about using them in my game against Lizardmen, but I decided against it. I've used them once against my friend's Skaven army, where they didn't do much of anything except die, thanks to the Skaven magical shooting attacks (freaking warpstone )Originally Posted by StonehambeyGrave Guard, I only have 10 models of currently, but my army list is running 20, and I'm just proxying some spare High Elf models my friend has until I get the other 10 I need for my full regiment. Although I can point out one problem I have with my Grave Guard;Originally Posted by Berny Mac
I put my Vampire Count in the Grave Guard regiment (remember my other post?), but because it's a Necrarch, and he can't carry any armor, I gave him the Crown of the Damned. I failed the leadership test TWICE (in the 3 turns we got through). So my whole unit suffered because of it. I went with the crown, thinking that a leadership of 9 wouldn't cause too many problems. But maybe I should just go with the Ring of the Night and take the 5+ ward save, instead of the 4+, and the stupidity that comes along with it.
Black Knights, I don't have a lot of. Only 5. I use them as my secondary attack unit (actually, 3rd, since I'm fielding the Black Coach now as well). But yea, I've realized how easily combat resolution takes them out when they don't have a huge regiment size.
Zombies, sometimes I'll run 1 regiment of 20, but lately, I haven't been fielding them at all, just summoning. I run 2 regiments of Skeletons. I try to keep them around 25, but sometimes I have to take it down to 20 to get some points back for other things.
I try to get the auto-break. That's really my whole purpose... is get the autobreak.
My strategy is:
-Charge with Skeletons, Zombies, or Grave Guard.
-Use Necromancers and Necrarchs to summon new regiments of Zombies on the flanks, or rear, of charged enemies.
-Book of Arkan or Vanhel's Danse Macabre the new regiment into the flanks / rear (If no Book of Arkan or Vanhel's Danse Macabre is available, tie up the enemy unit for a turn until I can get the charge)
-Cause panic tests, win combat through #'s & flank / rear charges, cause autobreak, pursue and destroy units.
Unfortunatley, for whatever reasons, those tactics don't work out on the battle field. My magic phases should be pretty dominant, but I seem to have some really bad magic phases.
Although, reading your reply, and typing up this post, I think I did think of one thing... drop my Black Knights altogether. Use those points for another regiment of Skeletons, or a regiment of Zombies. A unit of 5 Black Knights, though can be nice on a charge, won't do too much overall, and combat resolution will wipe them out.
Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos
A unit of 20 is the minimum size in my opinion for Grave guard.Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
Well as I said before I don't think putting Necrachs in the regiment is such a good idea and I think the crown of the dammned definitly isn't worth the points. If you have to make a Ld test every turn you will fail one for sure regardless if your Ld is 9 or 10 even.
When it comes to magic concentration is the key. I would prefer to concentrate my entire magic phase on raising one large unit of zombies or obliterating one unit of the enemies than spreading a little amount of damage across the board.
That's an interesting way of looking at it.Originally Posted by Berny Mac
I've been working out a new army list (one that probably wouldn't been too approved around here, since it contains Necrarch Thralls, and I've heard many people claim Necrarch Thralls are useless, although I disagree, but won't get into it now), and that's pretty much the idea, to concentrate on just building my units (or creating new big ones).
I dunno how well the army will work, but experimentation is the key, here.
Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos
I used to think necrach thralls weresn't so good but there was a discussion on it and the concensus was that they do have their uses try scrolling through a few of the topics about a moonth or two ago there were some pretty good debates and tactics raised.
If you find yourself losing to skaven quite a lot then join the club.Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
Even the guy who wrote the army book, Alessio Cavatore, apologised for making them too good.
Against lizardmen, which I play a lot, I like taking banshees, they ignore coldblooded, and can wreak havoc, I strongly recommend them, and if you are playing a Coach, keep it away from kroxies or a scar vet. Hosts can clog up and even wreck a unit of kroxies btw, and I have done it before. Heros in skeleton units do wonders for cr, and heavy infantry like GG don't really need one, they just get a lot better with a character in them. For my black knights i will normally run units of 6-8, which may include a character. I can't give you any advice on skaven, but i would reccomend banshees again, hide them in the woods and take out low ld units easily. Also you can screen with ghouls and host. I used to lose a lot to lizzies, but it just took practice, and now i have my tactics against them, most of which i mentioned.
Right on. Undead are hard to play, and LM are very tough to beat.Originally Posted by Master Jabu
Have you considered swapping armies and you playing as the LM and your friends playing the vampire counts? I know you want to win with VC but it might be some sort of a confidence boost if you beat him. At least then you'll know you're not just a terrible player.