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I'm asking this question as I recently played a game against a lizardman player and lost. I had more magic, I out manouvered him, and basicaly had taken his army off the table except for a unit of saurus warriors with the armour save boost spawning with his general in it. That unit proceeded to destroy 23 grave guard, 40 zombies, 6 black knights, 16 ghouls, and my mounted wight lord. I'll admit that there was some bad rolling going on but I never managed to come close to wining one round of combat, which would have made him auto flee.
More generaly how do you deal with hard unit such as these, weather they are Khornite chosen warriors, temple guard, etc etc etc. It seems that if I set two units on them for outnumber and flank I just end up giving them more attacks and then I can lose from two units when combat res comes around. If I try tying them up with zombies, their high number of attacks combined with combat res makes them disintergrate faster then I can raise them.
Hehe, i'll say it before and i'll say it again: Swarms are among the best units in the game, and VC have two amazing swarm choices.
Spirit host will hold these guys up for as long as you need. Especially if you get him in the flank, because for the first round of combat his general (who i assume has a magic weapon?) won't be able to attack. And you'll get the +1 in the flank. You really need to gank saurus units if you want to break them (not only are they hard but they have amazing ld)
The same goes for any army really. If you're having problems with a hard unit, send 30 unbreakable wounds towards them - problem solved(Y)
(Of course all undead are unbreakable, but i was just pointing out that other armies swarms are unbreakable)
Max out on spirit host and bat swarms and you will soon be laughing again
If there is such a unit that you cannot deal with it, just ignore it, stick something disposable in front of it, redirect the charge into a useless location, and just take out the rest of his army. Its no use trying to destroy the super unit with more than it's points worth.
A lot of the replies to this thread (including my own) make assumptions about the player you are playing against. It's all very well saying charge it with swarms or redirect it to a useless location, but your opponent will have his own counetrmeasures and if he's spent so much on this unit he's gonna want it to see some action!
I think rather than going into battle with a set way of addressing this problem in mind, you should try and react to your opponents moves during the game. Unfortunately the only way to gain this skill is through sheer weight of games. Try to keep an open mind when playing and you should do well. The best style is to have no style, otherwise you lack the flexibility to adapt
(but still try the swarms)
Pretty much all troops are superior to VC ones, I see the really good ones as little more of a threat than the average ones. Though I'm not used to facing the heavies like Saurus and Chosen Chaos Warriors so its probably different...
Generally yeah just ignore the unit, keep away from it until you have the rest of the board fairly well under control then surround it. There was a tough unit of Dwarfs I did that with once, 2 characters, I just killed the rest of the army then moved my units into position on all sides and crushed them.
Magic may also help, blast them with that.
Vampires in your units are brilliant, they'll rake up a few kills and turn the combat in your favour. I rely pretty heavily on my vampire's kills.
Of course if you really want to beat it a 30 strong unit of Grave Guard with the banner of the Barrows a Wight Lord with the Hell banner and a Blood Dragon Count or Thrall will kick those Sarauses all over the place. Massive points sink but great to see the look on your opponents face.
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My problem was that I did toss everything at him. I flanked him with a unit of GG+vampire, then I tossed a unit of 30 zombies into the front, and 9 ghouls on the back, and 9 ghouls on the other side. I rolled poorly with the GG not getting one kill (and I had the re-roll misses spell on them too), my vamp got 1, he saved all 7 wounds from the ghouls, then proceeded to get 6 kills off the zombies, 5 off the ghouls, and 3 of the GG. So my ghouls ran, all my undead started crumbling and things went downhill from there. Looking back at it, if I had just left my GG in there alone he wouldn't have had the combat res from zombies and ghouls and he would have lost. I didn't outnumber him and his general was there so he probably wouldn't have run, but I wouldn't have had a crushing defeat either.
I had a few similar problems against saurus where he was killing 5 or more zombies a turn and then winning combat by 5 which just ate into through my unit.
I think the best way to deal with that sort of situation is to leave the graveguard on their own and put the vampire in the unit of zombies. Zombies will get munched by saurus but if you have the vampire with the zombies he can take a few saurus down meaning less directed to the zombies.
Grave guard seem perfectly capable of handling themselves and a vampire in the unit is probably not worth it when he could be out there protecting the zombies.
I think throwing a lot at the saurus is probably a good idea. At least put a unit of zombies in the flank (if possible) or something else to negate their ranks which will boost your combat res massively.
Just my thoughts, but give it a shot next time you face heavy infantry. Otherwise the zombies fighting heavy infantry without a vampire seem to lose by such a phenomenal amount that nothing the graveguard can do will make up for it.
Last edited by Viewmaster; June 18th, 2006 at 07:45.
IMHO, VC are best at wittling down enemy forces and crushing what is left over with their stronger units. I run incredible amounts of skeletons (no zombies) and dire wolves, 30 strong GG, and maxed out magic dice (necros and Von carstein lord/count). As for more punch, I typically field my von carstein general in with my 30 strong grave guard and give them banner of the barrows, I've never had any problems marching through peeps with that (saurus included).
I've gone up against many a foe and watched them eat through one of my skele units taking some casualties in the process, only to see me create another skele unit and get charged by my GG ("death by bones" as I call it). Whats really funny is seeing my opponents try to shoot my GG to death only to see my army doubling in size with skeles and their flanks getting ripped apart with legions of puppies (thats what focusing on my GG gets them)...
Bottom line is that you have strong units if you need them, but you should be using numbers to your advantage first and FOREMOST.
That's bad luck. If you hit him from all sides, removed rank, added CR bonuses to yourself and STILL lost combat, that's just bad luck. You should have won and will win those 9 times out of 10.Originally Posted by xrix1
As long as you can combine charges or delay until reinforcements charge in, VC can win against most units, barring ItP, unbreakable, demons, etc. But like Strewart said, almost every unit out there is superior to VC troops. Even wights with killing blow and nice armor save have a low WS, making them easily hit against almost everything out there.