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  1. #1
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    Necharch bloodline viable in 7th Edition?

    Well the title says it all. For those of you who don't know about the rumord changes coming, the miscast table has gotten many times worse. With instant deaths and S10, S8, S6 and so on hits, the role of magic will be like walking through a mine field.

    I am curious to know what the general consensus is on magic in the game and its current balance. Do many here feel a Necharch army is overpowered and thus justifies magic getting an impending change come 7th Edition? Are the possibilities of miscast, failed roles, and dispells not enough of a balance to magic now that it needs to get worse with these new changes?

    Thank you for your time.


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  3. #2
    /botnobot/ DavidWC09's Avatar
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    Sure they will, but it might be a good time to consider the Unholy Cynosure power or even the Skull Staff. Plus, if you don't roll more than three dice, the chances of miscasting are slim.
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  4. #3
    Senior Member Nell2ThaIzzay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidVC04
    Sure they will, but it might be a good time to consider the Unholy Cynosure power or even the Skull Staff. Plus, if you don't roll more than three dice, the chances of miscasting are slim.
    The problem is, unless you're a level 4, you CAN'T roll more than 3 three, so your chances of actually getting the spells off have become slim.

    Say goodbye to Vanhel's Danse Macarbre and Curse of Years, because unless you have a level 4 with them, you're not getting them off.
    Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos

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    /botnobot/ DavidWC09's Avatar
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    1283 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
    The problem is, unless you're a level 4, you CAN'T roll more than 3 three, so your chances of actually getting the spells off have become slim.

    Say goodbye to Vanhel's Danse Macarbre and Curse of Years, because unless you have a level 4 with them, you're not getting them off.
    Well, the average roll on 3 dice is 10 and Necrarchs get +1 to casting rolls, so they should get Macarbre fairly regularly and Curse of Years more often than not (unless you ticked off the dice gods, which we've all done one time or another).
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    Son of LO Plague_00's Avatar
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    i would quit complaining their have been rumour for years DON'T go getting you nickers in a knot over somthing that may or may not happen especially since it may or maynot be happening for months!
    "take my love, take my land, take me to where i cannot stand, i don't care i'm still free you can't take the sky from meee" ;- firefly

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    "I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar" ;- serenity

  7. #6
    Son of LO Wolf_Pack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plague_00
    i would quit complaining their have been rumour for years DON'T go getting you nickers in a knot over somthing that may or may not happen especially since it may or maynot be happening for months!
    I've seen the miscast table. It is nasty. But then again, there should be a price to a greedy number of dice, and that's fine. Unless you die instantly, the vampire or any undead caster can just like is wound with IoNehek, big deal
    Best Regards,
    Wolf_Pack

  8. #7
    Senior Member Nell2ThaIzzay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_Pack
    I've seen the miscast table. It is nasty. But then again, there should be a price to a greedy number of dice, and that's fine. Unless you die instantly, the vampire or any undead caster can just like is wound with IoNehek, big deal
    My problem isn't even with the miscast table (although I do believe it's TOO devistating to us caster armies), but rather the fact that the magic phase has been handed over to magic defense.

    Magic as it is, is the only phase in the game where the more you take of it, the more defense against it you have.

    Example: My friend plays Skaven. No amount of shooters I take will be able to STOP his Ratling Guns, Warpfire Throwers, Warplock Pistols, Warp Lightning Cannons, etc... his shooters will shoot, no matter how many shooters I take.

    However, he takes a mage, and he can stop my magic from going off. And the more mages he takes, the more of my magic he can stop.

    Even armies that have no magic at all, they still get 2 free dispel dice to stop my magic. As Vampire Counts, I don't get any kind of shooting, and on the same token, I don't get 2 free dice to stop his shooting.

    However, that's fair enough as it is. I don't have a problem with that. As a magic heavy army, I can manipulate the magic phase to surpass that. I can toss out spells as diversions to waste their dispel scrolls and dice for the spells I really want to get off. Curse of Years and Gaze of Nagash are great for that. So I still have a chance to do some stuff in the magic phase.

    The against armies that have no magic at all, sure, I'll have a dominating magic phase, and there isn't much they can do about it. However, the points that I spent on magic, and they saved on not having magic, they are able to spend elsewhere. Nice decked out characters that can whoop mine into oblivion. Big regiments that no matter how many magic missles I get off, I might not do enough wounds because they have good armor saves, or good numbers. Or even more regiments, so even if I whipe out one regiment, there's still another that I have to deal with.

    However, now, as it is, it's all going to change, and the magic phase is being handed over to magic defense.

    I no longer have the dice needed to cast "diversion" spells, because my mages can only throw the dice that they generate. That means that Level 2 Wizards can only cast one spell. Level 3 Wizards can cast 1 spell, and Level 4 Wizards are the only wizards that have a legitamate chance to cast 2. Level 1 Wizards are totally worthless. There was at least an upside to Necrarch Thralls in the current addition, but Level 1 Wizards, in my case Necrarch Thralls, will be totally pointless. They will be a waste of points.

    And now, I can't throw as many dice towards spells, nor can I have as much diversity in spells, and I now have less of a chance of getting spells off.

    Let's look at a Level 2 casting Invokation of Nehek. 7+. That's roughly 50% (a little more, I know, but for the sake of arguement, it's 50%). That means that half of my Invokation of Nehek spells won't go off without any magic defense in the process. That means that the opponent has half as many spells to focus the same amount of dispel dice. So my opponent has the same amount of dispel dice, but only half the amount of spells to worry about, meaning their dispel dice are going to go a lot further now, because there's no limit to the amount of dispel dice that they can throw to dispel a single cast. And since I can't throw more than 2 dice with a Level 2, my chances of getting that 7+ have just dropped drastically below 50%, because all it will take is really 3 dice to dispel that.

    Then there's the higher level spells, such as Gaze of Nagash, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, and Curse of Years, which all require 8+, 9+, and 10+ respectivley. A Level 2 Wizard will not be able to reliably get those spells off. Possibly the Gaze of Nagash, but the days of a Level 2 Wizard casting Vanhel's Danse Macabre or Curse of Years have gone out the window. However, considering the randomness of how spells are distributed, I could very well get a Level 2 Wizard with Vanhel's Danse Macabre or Curse of Years, a worthless spell for him because he'll never be able to get it off.

    Then we have the Level 3, who CAN get off any of his spells, but again, he can only cast once, because he only has 3 dice to throw. So that means on any given magic phase, 2 of his spells are a waste.

    Level 4 Wizards will be the only Wizards with anything of a chance of getting off 2 spells, but they'll both have to be 7+ or lower for it to work reliably.

    So now, my best spell casting chances to get a spell off fall to around 50%, and that's really only for 1 spell worth casting (Invokation of Nehek, as at least for Necromancers, I don't see Hand of Dust being worth it. On a Vampire I can see it, but not a Necromancer). Half of my spells won't get off, the other half will have a higher chance of being dispelled, because with me getting off less spells than I do now, my opponent's SAME NUMBER of dispel dice will go further now. Therefore, there's a higher chance of me not getting off a single spell, playing even against minimal magic armies, than there is now. When now, if you want to stop my magic phase, you at least have to invest the points into it. That's not the case now... the same amount of points for magic defense goes further, while the same amount of points for magic casting becomes worse. And I don't think that's the right direction to take.

    Then throw the new, ridiculous miscast table in the mix, and magic armies, like ours, have become a totally inviable option for 7th edition.
    Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos

  9. #8
    /botnobot/ DavidWC09's Avatar
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    Wow, Nell2ThaIzzay. That was one heck of a post. You make some really good points that I hadn't considered. You're right, it's already easy for an army to defend against magic. A couple of scroll caddies, and you're over. But currently they do that at the deficit of combat prowess since they sacrifice fighting heroes in doing so. You mention that in the 7th edition they can go with even less magic defense and still be effective and get the added benefit of fighting heroes that before were less feasible.

    I think you're largely right. The Wood Elves list I'm working on now counts on a pretty insignifcant magic phase, on both players' parts. It uses two Alter Nobles for fighting/shooting heroes and a Branchwraith for the general. The BW is a lvl 1 caster and has a Cluster of Radiants for an extra dispel die. That yields four dispel dice as my only magic defense.

    So how can VC operate in the new rules re: magic? Let's say you have three lvl 2 casters: a Necrarch count and two Necromancers, one of whom has a Power Familiar, for a total yield of nine power dice [2 army, 2 vamp, 2 necro, 3 necro].

    When rolling for spells, you take IoN on all three. The vamp also gets Curse of Years (you got lucky), the first necro gets Danse Macarbre, and the necro with the Power Familiar gets Gaze of Nagash.

    If you really want to get IoN through, you can cast Curse of Years with three dice from the Necrarch by using his two dice and one of the army's. Let's say he's successful thanks to his +1 to casting rolls, yet the enemy dispels it. Now the first Necro can roll for IoN on a 7 with three dice using two of his and the other one from the army. Last, the Necro with the PF uses his three dice to roll IoN again. At least one of the three spells should get through, hopefully the IoN you needed.

    Also, sometimes it's okay to summon new troops on a 3+, especially if you have a Necrarch who adds +D3 to his summoning rolls thanks to a nifty bloodline power. With his IoN die, he could roll a 2 and need a 3 from the D3; or roll a 3 on the IoN die and need a 2+ on the D3 die; or roll a 4+ on the IoN die and not have to worry about the D3 die. Odds are, somebody'll summon some troops.

    Mix up the enemy by using the Necro with the PF to roll for a 7+, and then use the Necrarch casting on a 3+, and make 'em guess about what you'll do with the Necro that has Danse Macarbe and the Book of Arkhan. Chances are that they'll let the Necrarch's spell through since it seems so harmless on a 3. But if you roll a 5 for how many troops you get, before you roll the D3, and then get 3 more...that'll upset your opponent and throw off his battle plans.

    So I think VC will do alright, and that Necrarchs with the right support will even do especially well. Rolling three dice shouldn't produce too many miscasts, and if you take Unholy Cynosure or the SKull Staff, you can reduce a lot of the miscast worry.
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  10. #9
    Senior Member Nell2ThaIzzay's Avatar
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    ^ The only good that I see coming of it, is, as far as I know, all power dice produced by items or anything else can be distributed like normal.

    I.E.: if a Necromancer has a Power Familiar, that power dice could go towards another Necromancer, or a Vampire, or something.

    But again, the problem is that I think the dispel portion will be too hefty. If I have a Necro who has Inovkation and Danse Macabre, well, once I cast an Invokation with him, that's one less Danse Macabre my opponent has to worry about. Therefore, he'll probably be more likely to dispel considering that's one less spell that can be cast that phase.

    And he'll more than likely get it, also, seeing as how the Necromancer can only throw 2 dice at the spell, and the dispeller can still throw 3 or more. And that's given that the Necro succeeded in the 50% chance to cast.

    Yea, there's at least 2 dice that can be distributed as normal (possibly more, if like I said, dice that come from items can be given to any mage), but I don't think it's enough to negate the power that the dispeller now has.
    Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos

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    Son of LO Plague_00's Avatar
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    hang on a sec okay so miscast table is bad whatever why the hell can mages only cast a single spell now?
    "take my love, take my land, take me to where i cannot stand, i don't care i'm still free you can't take the sky from meee" ;- firefly

    "i'm gonna grant you your greatest wish i'm gonna show you a world without sin" ;- serentiy

    "I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar" ;- serenity

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