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I've set a match up against one of the people at my local Games Workshop who plays Dwarves. I'm interested in this match because of the challenge it poses.
I run Necrarchs (as many may know from my previous posts I've made over the months), and Dwarves have good magic defense. Plus, Dwarves have high leadership, that all but negates my fear. And apparently, Dwarves are pretty tough little buggers too, so they'll be hard to beat in combat, so it will be hard to autobreak them.
He and I were joking tonight, it's like they were thinking "Okay, we need to make an army to beat the Vampire Counts... wait, WE'VE GOT IT!!!"
I'm thinking (and I dunno if this is going to work or not), just TOTALLY beefing up my magic. A Count, 3 Necros, Power Familiar, Dark Acolyte, maybe even some Power Stones, just as many power dice as I can get ahold of, and going with the mentality of "you can't dispel them all! Eventually I'm going to get an irresistable force!" He told me he can get around to 10 dispel dice... I think I've worked out that I can get up to 13 power dice, so on a perfect magic phase, that'd mean at least 1 uncontested spell, hopefully.
So, what advice do the more experienced players have for me? I'm not going to "sell out" and change bloodlines (I say sell out because I play Necrarchs, always have, that's what I built my entire army and strategy around, and I don't think it's really cool of me to switch up my bloodline all of a sudden for 1 match... that, and I want to do this with what I have).
I'm thinking that Terror will be pointless, his high leadership units will beat it reliably, and Terror won't do much of anything anymore. I'm not sure exactly what his Anvil thingy does, but he did tell me to keep my characters off of mounts, I dunno if that means he can do stuff to mounts or not, so I dunno if I should take Black Knights... but a big unit of 20 Grave Guard with the Screaming Banner may help with some of that high leadership.
Should I focus on some Dire Wolves to get some flank charges on his units that are engaged from the front with my Zombies and Skeletons? With his high leadership, is it worth the risk of him beating his panic tests and possibly beating up on even more units of mine?
What should I do with characters? In combat, they'll be killed (Necros at least), but outside of units, he'll have cannons that will be able to take them out...
Am I just marching my soldiers to their 2nd death, or is this a battle that can be won?
Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos
Personally i wouldn't use magic as the only means of defeating a dwarven player. 10 dispel dice is insane and if he's taking that in a 2000 pts game (is it 2000 pts?) then i think you'll have to spend so much on magic users to compete that the rest of your army will suffer.
As for war machines use spirit hosts, fell bats, ghouls etc to tie them up. They may not kill too many dwarfs but at least it will buy you a bit of time. And the other thing is i think you should be able to just put necros in the woods to protect them from war machine fire rather than investing points in protective items.
Against dwarfs just forget about the high leadership. Play the game as you would against any other army and just get them to autobreak by winning the combat which completely ignores their leadership. If the army is tailored against vampire counts then it will probably include things to make units fearless or slayers but i suppose thats where you can focus raising units of zombies to tie them up for the game.
In terms of characters maybe consider taking a lord just for a bit more fighting power, a few necros to back him up in magic and then maybe a wight lord to take on characters. My thought is basically that if you go completely magic against dwarves you will be completely outdone in the combat phase and never break his units.
See what you think, if you're intent on going magic heavy then go for it but at the same time i think more dice means more miscasts and dwarfs will also naturally stop more magic than other armies.
Viewmaster is right, I have heard many times you love necrarch, I can't hold anythign against you for that, and I won't try and tell you to do something else. Against dwarves though, their units will tear ours up, especially without a vampire in the ranks. I think this could be a time for a little tactics change, by which i mean running some necrarch thralls, and maybe a wight lord, and a necro. You can still get a normal number of dice, which i think is all you should try for, come on, even if you do manage to get a spell off a turn(if that) what are the chances its something important. He will know you are saving your spell for last, and he will have more than enough dice to pick and choose whats important to him. What if your spell fails. Then not only does he not waste his dice, but he is up on you. Then there are miscasts, which can ruin your game on turn 1.
There are many things that can go wrong with magic heavy against dwarves, they almost beg you to go magic heavy so they can show you their strength. Though, the only way he could get 10 dice, is if he ran 3 runesmiths and a lord and used the anvil of doom, which though I have never played dwarves before, only seems believable when he would be facing something like you where he knows you plan magic heavyness. The problem there, is that runesmiths still are good in combat, argueably better than a thane becuase they can get more runes, the only downside is lower T and WS. He will be getting 4 characters that can fight, while you would spend all of your points on getting power dice and sacrificing fighting.
If you run a count, 2 thralls and a wight lord, you could do the normal SoK combo with the wight and put him in a unit of bk or gg. Then you could either combat the thralls up as well as you can, or give them the +1 pd bloodline ability and stuff like that. I wouldn't reccomend that screaming banner myself, it only works on fear tests. What I will say though, is that black knight hammers seem like they could be extremely effective against dwarves. They will nearly always get the charge, and with s6 and the bannner of the barrows, you can rip through really strong units. If you give a thrall the cursed book, and the wight in another unit of bk, both a total of 8 strong, you will have 2 hammers charging down the middle that will tear through the tiny dwarves. Wait in deployment to see where he puts his cannons, and try to give one unit the 5+ wd vs shooting and put that on the side of the cannons (unless he spreads them. Then use dire wolves to screen from shooting, and have bats and host go after the warmachines. I would have all of my specials used, 2 bk, ethereal host (no matter what style you play, use them), and a strong unit of bats.
This may not be your style, but you asked for help when keeping the same bloodline. I think black knights are a better bet than gg, becuase they can get to the dwarves much faster than they will get to you. Ghouls can also prove worth while with their poison. I think you should try to get flanks quickly if possible, but also remember they will not get many flanks on you. Expect shooting, and dont be sad when a unit gets halved or goes down to it.
I would stay away from rare choices all together in this game, a coach will just be targeted by canons and killed in 1 shot, and banshees will have tough times getting over ld 8-9. I hope this can help, I know it is very different from a horde style, but you want to make an army that is basically magic reliant, which can only get off 1-2 spells a turn, that is not good enough for going all out, and you will suffer for it if you play it (no offense).
Good luck in the game, btw, this is a combo I normally do with blood dragons, but playing necrarch as well, I think it would work alright with thralls and wights.
Last edited by Master Jabu; July 5th, 2006 at 00:49.
alrighty against dwarfs vc's are in trouble especially necrach okay this is the only army i sugest you do this against but desperate times call for stunty smushing measures
4 thralls (i can't remember if the lv 1 wizard is for free or a line power wither way make sure they all got them) now if the points allow get a magic sword for each (tomb blade, sword of might , sword of battle, biting blade) then stick each in a unit of skelies 25 for norm thralls 30 for the gen with the tomb blade
next on you list should be 2 banshees (these are mainly for cheap distractions if he wants to deal with them he has to use warmachines with runes wich keeps em away from your valuable units for a while or they will harras him to no end also some players seem to have a abnormal fear of them) then 2 units of black knights big enough to survive on their own
the rest ya should sink into zombie units 20 each as many as ya can fit any odd points should be spent on maybe a bsb or some nifty stuff for your thralls
tacs are relatively simple position the skelies in the center, knights and banshees on the flanks (one apeice) and the zombies screen the skellies any left over are placed beside them the only spell ya should attempt is the summoning and it is best used on existing units
zombies charge in knights sweep across rinse and reapeat skelies step up for the zombies when they can no longer ..er live and mop up keep it up watch for traps (it is easy to lose the knights if your not careful) and hope hehasn't gone all missle troops, i know it's an unusual list but it is the best way to deal with dwarfs with necrach or even nercomancers i wouldn't recommend other lines try this though
"take my love, take my land, take me to where i cannot stand, i don't care i'm still free you can't take the sky from meee" ;- firefly
"i'm gonna grant you your greatest wish i'm gonna show you a world without sin" ;- serentiy
"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar" ;- serenity
Ummmmm, are you suggesting 4 thralls with no lord level? No offense but that would be terrible. Also, I am not sure what you mean by giving each the lv 1 wizard, that is 45 points of magic, IMO not worth it, and that would leave nothing else for magic weapons or anything. I have already voice my opinions on banshees(though i normally love them) I did not mention any infantry, maybe I forgot. I've found myself using less and less becuase I am playing more magic resistant armies that don't let me get the spells off I need to beef my units. You could do a massive horde, but unless you have thralls or wights in them, they will be torn to shreds I think, and it will just be 2 hordes marching at eachother (kinda boring). There are a few strategies you could take, but Plague was right, it will be a tough fight.Originally Posted by Plague_00
You could go magic heavy with lots of bound items.
Necrarch, lvl 2, ring of the night, dark acolyte, master of the black arts, the awakening
Necromancer, lvl 2, book of ark
Necro, lvl 2, pwr familiar
Necro, lvl 2, staff of damnation
That's 12 power dice and three bound items
Yes, the anvil is a good reason to not be mounted but safely hidden in a unit.
Master Jabu may i suggest using paragraphs, it makes your posts so much easier to read, thankee*tries to resist urge to bring up discussion about hitting characters with cannons*Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
I think you should take a load of spirit host as they are the perfect screen
Don't underestimate fear/terror either. He will be having to take these tests all game so he will fail them at some point. (I used to think saurus were effectively immune to fear, but believe me...they ain't)
Woops sorry:cry: I wrote that today when I woke up and didn't think about grammar that early. I'll change it for yee.
Okay, the game is actually happening tonight (wasn't supposed to be until next week), so here's what I'm running with.
I know this isn't the army list forum, but I think it fits, considering the topic of the thread.
Vampire Lord - Level 3, Necrarch, Nehekara's Noble Blood, Sword of Battle, Book of Arkhan
Vampire Thrall - Necrarch, Battle Standard, Staff of Damnation, Nightmare
Wight Lord - Heavy Armor, Sword of Kings, Enchanted Shield,
Skeletons (x20) - Hand Weapon / Shield, Light Armor, Champion, Standard Bearer
Skeletons (x20) - Hand Weapon / Sheild, Light Armor, Champion, Standard Bearer
Dire Wolves (x5)
Dire Wolves (x5)
Grave Guard (x20) - Heavy Armor, Shield, Champion, Standard Bearer, Screaming Banner
Black Knights (x5) - Champion, Standard Bearer, Banner of the Barrows
Spirit Host (x3)
Fell Bats (x3)
Total Points: 1993
I'll let you guys know what happens when I return tonight.
Thanks for the advice. I didn't follow anyone's advice 100%, as you can see, rather I kind of took a mix of what everyone suggested, and what I wanna do, and blended it together in one list. I'll let you guys know the results when I get back tonight. Thanks again.
Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos
The list seems pretty good, I hope it works out for you, and if it doesn't I'm looking forward to hearing why (with no experience of my own), or why it worked ofcourse.