Welcome to Librarium Online!
I have just recently started playing VC.
Currently i have 2 units of 20 skellies, 1 unit of Black Knights a banshee 2x necromancers and a vampire thrall (1000 pt list).
I've been having a heck of a time beating some of the armies at my gaming store due to their composition.
We played a game the other day (1500 vc (added tomb guard + another unit of knights) & 1500 orcs) vs 2x 1500 empire armies.
The empire armies consisted of a block of infantry 30 strong with 2 detachments (gunners, free company), a unit of knights, another unit of infantry 30 strong with same 2 detachments, 2 x units of knights, 1x pistoleers. Also included were a character on a gryphon, mounted BSB, 3x mages 2x mortars, 1x cannon 1x hell blaster.
Turn 1, He shot me and out magicked me (orcs had no magic), I advanced
Turn 2, He shot me, I advanced
Turn 3, He shot me, I advanced
Turn 4, He shot me, I charged. He passed all his leadership tests (since he has leadership 8 or 9 + banners and trinkets and whatever else to help against fear).
He outnumbered me, outranked me, was superior in all stats (yay weapon skill 2). Got stuck in combat.
Turn 5. Stuck in combat, crumbled (yay low initiative)
Turn 6. Died
The only success i had was in taking out a couple war machines (hell blaster after it wiped a unit of knights and a unit of orcs off the board, and mortar (okay, it blew up, but I'm claiming a small victory here since he tried to snipe an ethereal character) and a handful of empire (banshee must have had laryngitis this week).
How do you even begin to approach an army like this? He has 4 turns of shooting that's going to kill stuff, matches if not outmatches you for magic and has superior units (stats wise).
OK, this is assuming you have plenty of money available...
I would suggest one, maybe two, massive units of zombies (around 40). If these get shot then you can always try to resurrect them. I prefer zombies over skeletons as I only use these troops to annoy the enemy. For example, to huge units like this are really tough to avoid and once an elite unit gets bogged down in them, it can be really difficult for them to get out.
Secondly, take 10 fell bats. That's 20 wounds your opponent will need to shoot down. They can really do damage to empire war machines.
Thirdly, bat swarms make wonderful screens to knights or GG.
Fourthly, I love spirit host. Their ethereal special rule makes them the perfect screen against things like that darn hellblaster.
Lastly, direwolves are always fun. They can really nip around the table and annoy the enemy, lots of small units of these can be a real pain in the ass by getting up close and personal to his shooty units in the first couple of turns^_^
Hope this provides some help
Last edited by Sammy the Squib; December 11th, 2006 at 20:18.
This will be quick...
Ethereal host to screen your MVP unit.
A disposable unit of 10 zombies in either one rank to screen two units or two ranks to screen one unit. Run it a few inches in front of your main units so that you don't pin yourself. Enemies on a hill will ignore this trick.
Ward save banner on black knights or grave guard.
Start big...at least 30 for zombies, 25 for skellies.
Fell bats, though 10 is too expensive IMO. Wolves are also cheap screens and with enough of them you can negate war machines too.
Banshees are good against empire, though their screams are randomized against war machines (which is utter crap IMO).
EDIT: And ghouls are good as screens against weapons that use BS as they are skirmishers who you can afford to lose. If kept within range of the general, they panic less often.
I think the units of zombies which have been suggested are probably a great idea against shooting armies, but then again if you have skellies painted up i'm sure 60 - 80 zombies is not exactly on top of your purchasing list.
But basically i think that the weakness of your list, it seems, is that you lack disposable units. It would be great if you could post up the specifics of the list but from what i can see it seems that you don't have many units and therefore against a heavy shooting list you will always struggle.
All of the units that have been suggested by Stonehambey and David are obviously going to be useful but basically i would change to focus more on spreading your points costs across units so that the enemy are not presented with a few, points heavy, elite units to target.
First off I'd say from the look of your list that there are too many wights. I think 2 units of black knights and a unit of graveguard in 1500 pts is far too much of a points sink. So instead I'd do as was mentioned build up your core units, 2 units of skeletons and 1 unit of zombies for example - none below 25.
Then add in all the fast units which have been suggested, fell bats, dire wolves, a few ghouls and maybe just one unit of black knights. I would avoid any extra banners on the black knights (although maybe include a standard if you want) simply because it is highly unlikely they will reach combat, and if they do they should only be a supporting unit to negate ranks.
Characters wise I would first suggest to your ally that they at least take a scroll caddy along to the fight to boost magic defence. The other thing is onto your characters. You mentioned that your troops lost combat due to poor stats. VC infantry have poor stats and the enemy will almost always have better troops than yours. To counter this as the back of the VC book explains you need to put a well equipped character in units to actually cause damage. Try putting a carstein thrall, wolf form (for warmachine hunting later), flayed hauberk and additional handweapon in a fully ranked unit and watch the empire autobreak. If they take units of 30 focus on raising the size of your units to outnumber.
Anyway enough rambling. A heavily shooty army should ultimately struggle against undead as the power of shooting is in knocking off elite combat units and panicking troops. The army doesn't panic and assuming you use characters rather than elite units to do damage there are very few worthwhile targets.
Last edited by Viewmaster; December 13th, 2006 at 06:30.
All good points from the posts above leave me with few other things to say. Warmachines die very easily to Fel Bats and Bat swarms which can be a huge pain for enemies to take down. The key here is to have so many units that your opponent doesnt know who to shoot at, Zombies as mentioned are the best in this case and you get a bonus when summoning them with IoN. They would also be good to outrank your opponent because they have the highest max unit size in the game, and you can simply re-summon whenever you are hurting from a coutner assault.
You can either go two ways as I see it for the marching part of this battle, Aura of Dark Majesty would be a great help to get your units moving fast. Also Danse Macabre to your zombies would give another great boost in the magic phase. Screen them all the time with spirit hosts and they cant touch you on the way up. Send some wolves to nip his flankes and some bats for his Warmachines and by the time hes done dealing with the harassments then your zombies are already getting him stuck in a mud pit while your Knights slash his flanks to ribbons.
The key here is either a huge frontal advance which is invulnerable due to Spirit Hosts, or diversion and distraction to keep him on his toes while your gigantic pile of dead bodies moves steadily forward, either way well played will lead to a win and by the way, shooting is overrated.
P.S lol David it seems everytime I go away and come back you change your avatar, any specific reason?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Itachi UchihaKonoha's Morning Mist and the trueSharingan sucessorItachi, we love you alwaysOfficial Shodaime Hokage of the CON 2 Boards
Thanks for all the advice on this. Can't wait to try a few of the tactics out to get across the field of battle.
I got another 3 boxes of skellies for Christmas and hope to have them on the table soon. That'll probably replace the grave-guard unit i've been using. I'll have to dig through my chaos box and find some of my old hounds from that to use as wolves.
I am not sure what kind of terrain you guys use, but keep in mind if your opponent uses hills your screens will not work. With that in mind, if he does use hills and places his shooting on them don't bother waisting points on screens.
I didn't really read any of the replies in this thread, so I don't know what's already been suggested.
As far as your opponent goes, well, Empire (and 2 armies of them at that!) is almost as bad as it's gonna get when it comes to shooting. Dwarves can be pretty bad, and Skaven can be cheesy with shooting, but other than that, I can't think of any heavy shooter armies that would cause those same problems (though other armies will still have cannons, artillery, archers, and such)
Against warmachines, Fell Bats are brilliant. a 20" movement allows them to get behind enemy lines fairly quickly and tie up warmachines. Using units such as Spirit Hosts for blocking also helps. They are Ethereal, so unless the shooting is magic, the shooting won't do anything, and you can use the Spirit Hosts to block line of sight to your big units (unless they have a hill)
So try to use Fell Bats to tie up the warmachines, or Spirit Hosts to act as blockers.
The other thing is beefy units. Big units of Skeletons and Zombies, that can resurrect their numbers, will help keep your army advancing through their fire.
Shooting is one of our biggest weaknesses as Vampire Counts. One piece of advice that I'd like to give, that I learned early, is, don't play to hide your weakness. Play to your strengths.
Shooting isn't our strength, it's our weakness. While a unit of Spirit Hosts or Fell Bats to help against shooting is nice, it's my advice to you to not play to try to stop their shooting. As Vampire Counts, we have very strong advantages in our fear, our unbreakable and immune to psychology, and our ability to increase our numbers on the battle field, and create new units in strategic locations. That's what we do, so it's up to you to do it well. Don't play to stop their shooting. I've done that, and when you do that, the entire army will become weaker.
Warhammer Fantasy: Vampire Counts | Wood Elves | Chaos
for the price of 20 skele with a banner you can buy 25 zombie with a banner. and usualy buy the second round the skele's are about as affective as zombie's. Also since you had orc's on your side next time tell him to drop one of those big bosses for a shaman. I havent seen the new book yet but i'm willing to bet that gorks warpath is still hella cool. Also if your having trouble with the guys with guns consider droping that unit of tomb guard in favor of a couple spirit host. there great for providing a bulit screen as long as you can stop magic from killing them too soon.