Damn Dirty Dwarves! (Advice please) - Warhammer 40K Fantasy

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    Junior Member txhazard's Avatar
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    Damn Dirty Dwarves! (Advice please)

    I posted this as a reply to somthing else but decided i wanted feed back, thx in advance!

    Well im actually preparing an VC army list for a throwdown against a friend who plays a heavy artillery based Dwarven army, and ive been pondering alot on this problem. (the winner gets a 35$ box set of his choice )

    Well here we go, as a VC player i realize one of my glaring weaknesses is speed. I also have some pretty weak core troops reliable yet weak. So the question is how do i get locked up in combat with his long nines and then start doing decent damage to the rest of his army?

    Well let me first say that im rolling with necrarchs or necromancer lord army, I like the ability to summon zombies and skellies at my whim. (i perfer the formentioned) Now i could do a nice necrearch army, however...the lords tend to be expensive and overly fragile and for the set up i give em i never have the points to give em a ward save. (i know what your thinking "No ward save what are you thinking!) Nehekaras noble blood (LvL 4 wiz) The awakening (D3 extra Zombs or skellies) And Dark acolyte (Extra power dice i think? dont have codex handy ATM) But a Necrmancer Lord is so much cheaper just as good at casting and if i fielded it as a Necro army then my stuff is cheaper!
    5 point Zombies and 10 point Grave guard oh my!

    Now ive seen the awsome power of the dwarves with their gay dispell dice (ive seen 13 im not sure if that was kosher but the other dwarf player was newer so...yeah) and the incredibly effective artillery (Human Impearlis to be exact) and the troops well damn.

    So this i what im going to do, exuse me for not having the codex for references and pts and such. First lets start with Core units, Zombies Zombies Zombies! im going to go with 6 20 man squads of zombies full command. i wanted to go 40 units deep but that actually got expensive 255point baskets with 40 eggs each! so i figure 6 units of 20 guys could do the trick, lots of targets that can take a few hits. Moving on!

    Necromancer with black gold wrist bands of 3+ ward save gayness against all missle attacks magic or otherwise, stick him on a nightmare and poof you got a level 2 wiz running up a flank casting Invocation of Nehek to his little evil hearts content.

    Now we got a Necromancer lord with Ring of night (5+ Ward) and Book of Arkhan (Bound Spell Allows me to Cast Danse Macabre, ill get more into this later) oh he also a lvl 4 wiz. then we got 2 more necromancers, necro1 with Cloak of Mist and Shadows (ethreal) the other one is going to have Cursed book (enemy has -1 to rolls to hit in CC) both lvl 2 wiz.
    now all this heroes is gona put me back 713 pts wow lot of points, this leaves me with the zombies in the bank a grand total of 1313 pts! At this point i have 687 pts to work with.

    Well I dont got too many points to work with however being a necromancer army list all my stuff is discounted so lets see what i can buy for special units. In my humble opinon its always worth buying Grave Guard, i can give them Banner of Barrows and the hit on a 3+ now matter what....But wait wont they get shot up by the dwarves long nines? Yes so lets put spirit hosts in front of them blocking line of site! Grave guard are only 10 pts a model in my necromancers army list and Spirit hosts are only 55 a base! this is good. This makes my GG with banner of Barrows 257 pts and a 3 base Spirit Host 165 Pts Leaving me with a grand toal of 1735 pts! Man only 265 pts left to work with (sorry found my Codex im crunching numbers as i go!).

    Okay so moving on, i feel i need some flankers so lets go with 10 dire wolves and a discounted price of 9pts a model, thats 90 pts. okay there we go. Now lets see what in the world can i field for 175pts? hey i got 2 rare choices i could get a banshee or two to help with killing...Crap 5 points short of 2...no wait they only cost 75 pts a model sweet, thats 150 pts giving me 25 pts to play with. lets give the Graveguard a Cryptkeeper at 12 pts, and what the heck ill throw in a Musician for 6pts. 7pts left! bonus points to whom ever can find a home for these!

    Assesment, Zombies across the filed with my lord and two necros spread apart to support as needed. I also Keep 2 units of Zombies and a GG unit a inch apart side my side so i can fit my heroes in between lined up with the center rank, this keeps em out of sight and out of cc but close to the frontlines.

    Now ive spent quite a few points in my heroes but the 10 dispell dice (i could sqeez 12) will be needed for the march up to his lines and the Book of arkhan will be good when he has used up all his DD. With me Necromancer on Nightmare back it should help get some stuff tied up. Same with the Dire Wolves. Graveguard will be good for killing and the Spirthosts should be fine with keeping em alive. The Banshees with Also help my Zombies thin down the ranks to make the Damn Dirty Dwarves flee for the hills they call home. Now please Scrutinize pick apart and give advice its all welcome!!!

    “Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity.?

    “In case of doubt, attack.?

    "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.?


    General George Patton-

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  3. #2
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    lol Tx-

    The 13 Dispel Dice went as follows:
    4-Dwarves generte this many and no power dice
    2- Rune Lord
    1-anvil of Doom
    1-Runesmith
    1-Ruensmith
    1- Item that steals a power dice from your Dispel
    1-Itemt hat adds a dispel I believ
    3-Wood Elves Ally

    And remember, you don't need Dispel dice against dwarves. No Magic.

    Take my advice as you see fit-
    I'd bulk the zombies with the dire wolves points, or the GG> You know any Dwarf general worth his salt will smash/shoot the flanking unit to smithereens before it can do it's job.

    Take some of your wargear off the crap necromancert o redistribute into more units of zombies and hide the wizards in the units of zombies until you get close,t hem have them leave out the back. Works just as well for saving their lives. Plus,t hat runed artillery means ethreal doesn't do jack, and if he's ina unit you get your, "Look out, Sir!" Rule to save him.

    Buy some power stones with your extra points from losing some of the expensive necromanmcer gear. Remember, if he plays like I did? you have to get through 10 Dispel dice at +3 to dispel. He can even squeeze mor eif he foregoes the thane's I took tot ake more rune smiths.

    Add more untis of zombies froms having hero points, create more targets he has to divide fire fromt hen just reinforce them with Nehek. Also your spirirt hosts won't work against Dwarf artillery, a rune makes them magic ewapons, and all you'll do is get your Spirit host AND your Grave Guard hit witht he same cannon balls.

    lol I want you to beat mark+his dad too lol.

    Good luck!

    P.S. BLACK KNIGHTS!

    "Give me reason ot suspect you are a Heretic, and I will come down upon you with the Wrath of Rogal Dorn."
    -Inquisitor Vaghn Orshead


    Space Wolves of BulvaiDaemondeth-
    W:1 L:1 T: 3
    Favored Enemy: Orks and Space Marine
    Black Knights Chapter: (DIY S.M.)
    W: 17 L: 11 T: 5
    Favored Enemy: Orks

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    generate ghouls behind his warmachines, fell bats take out warmachines well too.
    Spirit host are good flankers and banshees would do well for hunting warmachine crews and killing warriors.
    I would do five huge units of zombies. the strength of VC is in their fear and out numbering with units. You need to start at around 25 and then bulk them up as you march across the field so that when they get into combat they are around 30-40 strong. All he has to do is fail one leadership test and you route the whole unit (not easy on a nine or ten) but that's how you win

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    Ok from reading your post I'm assuming that you are just creating an army that is designed specifically to counter a heavy artillery dwarf army, and since the game is for a box set i assume you're not too concerned about a slightly tailored army list? Or maybe changing from your suggestion of using necrarch/ necromancers?

    First of all a quick critique of the list...

    Don't use 6 units of 20 zombies. You need numbers, but they need to be concentrated. 1 unit of 30-35 zombies is going to be better than 2 units of 20. The 2 units will get bottlenecked, and if they dual charge dwarfs then they will each lose models to combat resolution (especially with dwarfs with great weapons striking first against your braindead zombies)

    Graveguard units with banner of barrows are one of those units that just won't make it to the dwarf lines with any kind of numbers that you need to win and auto-break. If you take these guys assume they'll be a target so its probably best to use them as one. Give them shields and command if you want and let them soak up fire.

    So onto my suggestion for what to take.

    My basic suggestion would be to take 4 combat vampires, probably strigoi, and NO magic. If you are tailoring an army to win against a dwarfs why take any magic? (other than of course the lvl 1 count who will be your general). Dwarf armies have more dispel dice than other armies and no casting capability. This renders any dispel dice you generate useless as HumanusImperialis pointed out, and your power dice are less effective as they have a greater chance to be countered.

    Just as a note: Normally I would advise against changing bloodlines. However I figure that if you're playing for a box set rather than a completely relaxed game, and want to beat this guy, a change of bloodline might be the way to go.

    Most people fighting dwarf lists think: 'oh god I need heaps of magic to make if effective'. This is just wasted points. Why not surprise the dwarf player (who will be expecting magic) with a full combat army. The other thing is that you can have all the numbers of zombies in the world but without some fighting power they won't win combat and are pretty useless. And your necromancers will likely be targeted and killed if they get into combat when in a unit of zombies. The bloodline that I would suggest to counter this is strigoi. My idea would be a count and 3 thralls. Once each is given infinite hatred and iron sinews (and massive monstrosity on the count) you have the most obscene amount of re-rollable attacks which will most likely wound on 2's. And you should get all the charges in which means the front rank should be dead before it gets to strike back, thus you have minimal need for protection on the thralls.

    With the characters picked build up 3 or 4 units of infantry, mostly zombies like you said. Although a unit of skeletons/ graveguard may be useful for the champion's ability to challenge any runed up dwarf lords. Spend the rest of your points on the most threatening units you can think of (black knights, spirit hosts, wolves, fel bats etc). Their job is to be speed around the flanks or hunt war machines. Your opponent pretty much loses either way with these units. The black knights, spirit hosts and wolves seem like the more immediate threat so they will likely be shot to pieces as HumanusImperialis said. But if too much fire is focussed on them it ensures that your zombies make it to combat unscathed. And if ignored then your opponent can enjoy having his warmachines tied up and his flanks charged.

    Just before your main blocks of infantry reach the dwarven lines concentrate the vampires in one or two units of zombies (preferably the bigger ones). Let me just explain this quickly. On the turn before you charge use the vampire's large movement to place 2 or 3 vampires in a single unit (or 4 vampires spread across 2 units). This will hopefully auto-break the dwarf units fighting the vampires and the other zombie units will tie up the other dwarf units. Once the vampires break through the defence and hit the warmachines the game should be pretty much yours... I'm not quite sure what buckeroo was talking about with dwarfs failing leadership tests? But as far as I can see the key to this, as always, will be bypassing the dwarven leadership by auto-breaking through outnumbering and winning combat.

    One thing to be careful of is the chance of units that are immune to fear through banners, lords etc (I haven't read the new book yet so I'm not quite sure whats available). Just find out what these units are and avoid them. Or just let the strigoi hack them to pieces which they are quite capable of doing.

    This may seem a little unorthodox for a vampire army, but seriously if your opponent has no idea and thinks you'll be bringing heavy magic wait to see the look on his face when you only have one lvl. 1 caster (by the way I wouldn't cast anything with this guy on the off chance he miscasts, and the spell will be dispelled anyway). Even if your the dwarf player does find out and takes thanes I think that 4 vampires can dish out enough punishment to autobreak most units of dwarfs. Just remember to put your count in challenges (against nasty characters) rather than thralls, counts have a lot more survivability and the thralls are just as capable at hacking apart rank and file troops.

    Let me know what you think/ how the game goes (and sorry for the huge post)

    Of course if you still want to take necromancers its your call. But given the choice in a game you want to win I think its worth trying to play non magic heavy, given the circumstances this seems a better approach to me
    Last edited by Viewmaster; June 15th, 2007 at 04:25.

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    Amen! Viewmaster makes a lot of sense

  7. #6
    Shrubs for the Blood God Undead Bonzi's Avatar
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    I play dwarfs so heres my 2 cents.

    Viewmaster is 100% correct about the magic. Simple battle tactics dictate that you should bypass and negate your opponents strengths rather than battering head on against them. Why waste loads of points on magic that the Dwarfs are so well designed to counter? Save your points for units that the dwarfs are weak against.

    Speed and infiltraition can be a dwarf armies undoing. If you have units hitting his line on the second turn hes only going to be getting so much shooting against them before they are in CC.

    One thing Im wonder about though is just what this dwarf army packs. Does he use organ guns or flame cannons for his rares? Lots of thunderers is a given I assume? Cannons or bolt throwers or both? This does have some small effect on consideration of what works best. (i.e. Skirmishing units are great against cannons and bolt throwers as they have no ranks to stack up hits on, but can be devastated by an organ gun).
    The only honorable options left to we combatants is seppuku or semantics...which amount to the same thing really.
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    Thanks guys, figured that an all combat list would probably make the most sense but we'll have to wait and see what txhazard thinks...

    One of the things that Bonzi pointed out that will be one of the big problems is getting to the dwarfs by turn 2, or as quickly as possible. In the way I configured the army list it makes it pretty difficult to be on the opponent any earlier than about turn 4 (assuming the dwarfs deploy as close to the table edge as possible). And this also works on the assumption that gyrocopters and the like are not marchblocking. Of course if the units are deployed against the table edge this would be great as when they autobreak they'll go straight off with no need of pursuit.

    On marchblocking. I guess its probably best to take some small units (5 or 6) of ghouls and wolves. As was mentioned long range weaponry such as cannons and bolt throwers will struggle with these and they should be able to deal with gyrocopeters, hopefully seeing them off in a turn. The other option would be to fight fire with fire and throw a bat form thrall at it. But that seems a lot of wasted points when it could be supporting units in combat.

    In terms of what units to take zombies seem like the better option for infantry. As far as I can see an unbreakable wall of 40 corpses is barely worth firing arrows at. But stonethrowers and templates could do a bit of damage. Then again its better than having a stone fall in the middle of your black knights.

    Edit: Was just reading through the 2000 pt strigoi list, http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...riendly-d.html (Strigoi 2000 need help for tournament friendly:d) and realised from Paz's post that I hadn't mentioned fel bats. These could really save the day by tying up warmachine crews that threaten the main blocks of infantry
    Last edited by Viewmaster; June 16th, 2007 at 08:51.

  9. #8
    Junior Member txhazard's Avatar
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    Okay i totally dig the Strigoi plan, this does anserw a few questions so im gona put up a Mock army list here for you guys to tear apart. Oh thanks guys i totally appreciate all this feed back keep it coming i value all opinons.

    (this is assuming i can use Zombies Can i use Zombies in a Strigoi list?)

    Strigoi Count 205 pts

    Infinite Hatred 30 pts
    Iron Sinews 20 pts
    Massive Monstrocity 50pts
    -
    Thrall-1 80pts Thrall-2 80pts Thrall-3 80pts
    Infinite Hatred 30pts Infinite Hatred 30pts Infinte Hatred 30pts
    Iron Sinew 20pts Iron Sinew 20 pts Iron Sinew 20pts
    -
    30 zombies full com 195 30 zombies full com 195
    30 zombies full com 195 30 zombies full com 195
    30 zombies full com 195
    30 zombies full com 195

    At a total 1865pts few free pts to spend

    now i know this is alot of zombies but im assuming hes bringing alot of guns and a wide variety of them. now im not even sure but in the back of codex it sez zombies are not available to strigoi which is a problem i hate skellies, so im guessing we can go with Blood dragons which opens up te possiblities of Lance Formation but ill leave this up for discussion.

    Strigoi army list fixems discuss.
    Blood D. discuss.

    thanks guys keep it coming.
    “Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity.?

    “In case of doubt, attack.?

    "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.?


    General George Patton-

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    You can definitely use zombies in a strigoi list. The lists in the back of the book are optional and you do not have to abide by them. The zombies as far as I'm concerned are far more fluffy for strigoi than skeletons so its fair to use predominanty zombies in any game you play.

    I like the set up of characters but seriously I think that 6 units of zombies is way too many. The way I see it, if your opponent is smart he will shoot out your centre units, and this will mean that your centre will have insufficient numbers and your flanks (the remaining full units) will not reach the enemy in time.

    The thing you have to remember is that you are restricted by a 12 inch march area around your general. Assuming you have terrain on the board anything more than about 4 units of infantry will be a hindrance as they will not march and are therefore wasted points.

    As for blood dragons. It is an option although you must realise that blood dragons always challenge and this can be a massive disadvantage. The other thing is that strigoi are perfectly designed for killing dwarfs. They hit on 3's and re-roll misses, then wound on 2's. Thats just about as good as it gets, no blood dragon thrall will rival this. And the strigoi should survive combat due the fact that you will get the charge and there will be no dwarfs left to hit back.

    Assuming you ditch the extra two (or even three...) units of zombies you have a lot of points to play with. I think that units that present flanking threats are the way to go. Knights in small units of 5 present a massive threat, while being able to soak up a lot of fire. This free's up your zombies. The idea is to have your centre win combats. So as I said its lose lose for your opponents, if they shoot the flankers then the zombies remain unscathed and if they shoot the zombies they will be flanked by black knights. Just as a note, no one ever seems to shoot the zombies, they're almost always fooled by the more pressing issue of black knights.

    Lance formation was an option I considered, and it could work. But then again it could really backfire as cannons, bolt throwers etc can really destroy your units of knights. However I guess if your opponent is happy with it then that might be an option. (the lists in the back of the book need consent, i think, or at least it would be good etiquette to ask). You could give all your vampires a lance and heart piercing (re-roll misses) which would make them nasty. But I don't think this is needed and the lists in the back of the book really aren't official so if you do destroy your opponent then he might have a few issues with you using the list.

  11. #10
    Junior Member txhazard's Avatar
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    This is good news the lists in the back were kool but really hindered the strigoi, imho.

    okay lets eliminate 2 Zombie squads, this will leave me with a grand total of 1475 pts...lets play.


    lets work on my skirmishers but before we do this, is the summon gouls ability worth it for tying up warmachines in the back?

    okay i know for a fact that this particular gentlman fears fast cav and will shoot at them.
    so should i just make several small units of dire wolves?

    5 D.Wolves 50 pts
    5 D.Wolves 50 pts
    5 D.Wolves 50 pts
    5 D.Wolves 50 pts
    5 D.Wolves 50 pts
    5 D.Wolves 50 pts

    3 Fell Bats (can these move 20 inches?) 60 pts
    3 Fell Bats 60pts
    3 Fell bats 60pts

    this should present him with a whole bunch of targets to shoot at and will make his decisions very hard pressed. (this guy does crack under pressure) so lets overveiw

    march zombies up the center and right before i charge, when i do stick 1-2 strigoi in the squad and win combat out number make dwarves run.

    flanks are supported by lots of fast units that if he does not shoot at will tear his war machines up. sounds good to me.

    thoughts?
    “Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity.?

    “In case of doubt, attack.?

    "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.?


    General George Patton-

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