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Hey all, I'm new here. Joined a couple of days ago as my friends and I are getting (back) into WH, and I'm continuing my VC army. Anyway, I had a question regarding skeletons and spears. That is: is it worth the extra point to give skellies spears? The general consensus around here seems to be "No." Anybody care to elaborate a bit more, or have any success stories about skellies+spears?
As a side question, what is a good ratio of skeletons to zombies?
Sorry if this has been asked before, a quick search of the forums didn't turn up anything relevant.
Thanks and nice to meet you all! Hopefully I won't lurk as much as I usually do :shifty:
Skeletons are generally not armed with spears for the following reason: they are not meant to win combat by killing enemies. It is typically seen that the potential additional attacks that spears can give is not worth the points vs the potential to save a couple of models using a 4+ save (light armor, shield, hand weapon parry bonus). Skeletons win combat through static combat res, and holding up the enemy until another unit can flank them. So in this regard, defence (better armor save from hand weapons) > offence (extra attacks from spears)
As far as skeleton to zombie ratio, I can't help ya there as I'm a TK player. Though, without knowing the full extent of the VC book, I would take zero zombies in my list, preffering to just raise new units through magic during a game.
I personally see it as almost a tossup. I usually go with the hw/shld option, as I'd rather have the save. But more attacks also means more chances at combat res. Skeletons will get some kills, just not as many as more elite infantry units.
I disagree with the notion that skeletons purely aim to win combat by static combat res. While not the best fighters they can still win fights and having spears offsets the disadvantage of a low Initiative as it means the enemy have to kill more to stop your attacks back.
They may have a lower armour save in combat, but they are expendable, you can raise more into the unit. And if you get Hellish Vigour on them then they've twice as many attacks as a unit without spears.
Even if you don't win combat each kill you make is one less skeleton crumbling.
For ratios, personally I use a (zombie:skeleton) 1:1 or 2:1 ratio depending on the size of the game. The larger the game the more skeletons I (normally) take.
So if you think you're going to be able to beat the enemy in the magic phase I'd go with spears. If you're going to get beaten or don't know how strong the opponent will be in the magic phase then you're probably better off with HW+S, as your chances of raising will be restricted and you need to make the most of what you start with.
Remember, you always have the option of taking the spears and then choosing whether to use the spears or the hw and shield. The spears are a nice option to have if you've got Hellish Vigor cast on the unit and/or you're fighting puny foes who have WS3 and S3 and only one attack. Otherwise, the loss of that extra point of armor could cost you some CR.
Well skeletons are slightly overpriced as they are so I prefer to go for the cheaper sword and shield option. I think most of the time its more effective. While Hellish Vigour would indeed make skeletons more effective it seems a bit of a gamble to hope you will both get the spell cast it and be fighting a sufficiently weak opponent that it will be be useful.
A unit of 30 skeletons who forgo their spears gives you an extra three dire wolves which I think is more useful.
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Giving skeletons spears always seems worth it if you have the spare points, especially if you invocate the unit as youre gettin more from the spell. They dont have to be used in combat and give you another combat option for a relativly cheap price, i always use spears and light armour for my 2 units of skellies and only occassionaly start with zombies so my ratios either 2:1 or all skeletons.
BEN DIESEL FTW!!!
I find that spears on skeletons arent worth it. Having a 4+ save is. Try both options out and then decide.
Rork edit: Woah! Check your spelling - you only give "special chocies" to your girlfriend.
I generally use two units of skellies, one with hand weapons while the other has spears. My lamian lord sits in the spear armed unit, happily using her sword of might and innocence lost (or possibly quickblood, i get confused between the two as i always take both) power to kill many of the opponants front rank. This means less attacks at the more fragile skellies who can then tip the combat even further witht their spears. Skeletons are not shock troops, but you have to be unlucky (or fighting heavy cav) not to kill anything with them and that extra pip of com res often helps.
As for the ratio, at 2000pts i take my two units of skellies and one of zombies. Skeletons seem to work better for me so i save most of my zombies for the innovaction (they are also easier to summon).
Everyone makes mistakes. mine was to leave her head in the fridge.
I like farmer's viewpoint. I start with skellies because they're harder to summon, and they're also worth more in VPs when summoned. Summoning zombies is easier and doesn't bring as many VPs onto the table.