Which Gunpowder Army is better - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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View Poll Results: Who has the best gunpowder?

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  • The Dwarves

    12 52.17%
  • The Empire

    11 47.83%
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  1. #1
    Senior Member Reiko's Avatar
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    Which Gunpowder Army is better

    Just curious as to what the community consensus on the two gunpowder armies are?

    Which one would be better? In particular reason why? Any specific War Machine that really puts on army over the other.

    Dwarfs or Empire

    Last edited by Reiko; November 22nd, 2010 at 20:56.
    "For Plunder and Women!"

    Bretonnians 7500, Empire 3300, Dwarfs 4800; Space Marines 2000, Tyranids 3000

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  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    1480 (x8)

    Without looking at the poll, I'm going to say that it's probably a very close match up between Dwarfs and Empire. Each army has it's benefits and it's own plays-style (even within the boring 'gunline' methodology).
    Dwarfs have their tough armor, their genuine Toughness, high leadership, Stubborn, and their gunners are extremely accurate. They boast a few weapons which are unique to their choices, but their mainstays are the same as those of the Empire: Cannons and Volleyguns. The main warmachine advantage over the Empire is their access to cheap Bolt Throwers, although many Dwarf generals overlook this in favor of the heavier Cannon.

    Despite all of this, I'd have to say that the Empire wins out though. For two reasons: Detachments, and Flexibility

    We'll start in on Flexibility. The Empire has access to magic, and they're not great at it, but they're average. They can actually do better than the Dwarfs in some ways, as their Warrior Priests (the equivalent to a Dwarf Runesmith) grants them a free extra Dispel Dice every turn. More importantly though is that they have several unit options which the Dwarfs do not: spears, halberds, longbows, and additional handweapon on their Core troopers alone, as well as Cavalry options to get across the field in a hurry.
    While a Dwarf general typically has no option but to rely on Gunline tactics of varying degree (sit back and shoot, because he's too slow to rush the enemy) the Empire general can get away without any shooting at all, and still have a tough army.
    The Empire also has a better selection of Warmachines than the Dwarfs (that's right, I said it). They have Mortars, which are better than Cannons, Volleyguns, or Bolt Throwers against Hordes. They also have the HelStorm, which is a boosted mortar, and the STank, which although it's been hit with the Nerfbat in 8th, is still a fearsome opponent. This flexibility carries over into their rifle selection- they can take mounted gunners, mounted pistols, repeating rifles and pistols, sniper rifles, and grenade launchers.

    When you really break the back of the enemy, is when you combine this flexibility with the Detachment system. Dwarf gunners are very stalwart fighters, however, if you want a satisfying combat unit, you waste potential shots by adding ranks, when you could be fielding a second unit of gunmen. Both the Dwarf and Empire armies have to field designated combat regiments. The difference is the Detachment System. The Empire army can field a combat regiment just like any Dwarf, but then back it up with a 10 man regiment of Gunners who get to stand-and-shoot whenever that combat regiment gets charged. So while a Dwarf player will shoot you on the 2-3 turns before combat, and then only stand-and-shoot if you charge his gunners, an Empire player can effectively Stand-and-Shoot with every one of his regiments, provided they have a detachment. They don't lose shots, and they don't waste models bothering to make their 'Shooters' into effective 'Fighters', because not only are each of their shooters standing next to a regiment of fighters, but this formation also makes surrounding regiment immune to Panic checks caused by the Detachment of shooters. Cheesy huh?

    Because of those two reasons, Empire are not only a slightly better army, but they are also a more enjoyable army. Dwarf players tend to have one tactic and one tactic alone when they want to win a game: sit in the corner and shoot you while you charge them, then weather your attacks in CC. Empire can have a full range of tactics- fielding Cavalry, Infantry, non-shooting, magic-heavy, even Monster Heavy in the form of Dragons, Griffons, Pegasi, STanks, and WAltars. The typical Empire general will use more of his Armybook in a given year than the Dwarf general, as his Warmachines are logical and each one brings a useful advantage over the others (Flame Cannons? Grudge Throwers? Silly Dwarfs).

    I will throw the stunties a bone however: as a pure gunline, the Dwarfs are better. They can give their shooting regiments armor, toughness, and a natural ability to hold up in combat. However, for a test of generalship, all around playing experience, and tactical flexibility, they just don't add up like the Empire does.
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  4. #3
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    Empire is arguably the most flexible army in the game, so comparing them to dwarfs on that, one of the most limited armies of the game in terms of choices ( Infantry & warmachines. That's all they have ) isn't a fair comparison anyway.

    What wrong with grudgethrowers? They can be runed up to be str5 and reroll the scatterdice.

    Btw CaptainSarathai, you should know that horde units of dwarfwarriors with great weapons and hordes of longbeardrangers with great weapons have gained great popularity since the launch of 8th edition. Dwarf combat armies are very viable now not just armies that sit in a corner and shoot

  5. #4
    Senior Member Reiko's Avatar
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    @ The bearded One- Prasie be Ye Longbeard, Ill buy the next round for ya!

    @ CaptainSarathai- WOW! That is a very good explanation. I am glad someone actually replied instead of just answering the poll. I do agree with the bearded ones comment about the Empire being very flexible, they just have sooo many units, kind of like the SM of 40k (unit selection wise)

    On another note, I would rep you but I can't. Honorary Rep granted !

    Nevermind I foudn the REP button!!! Rep add to you Captain Sarathai
    Last edited by Reiko; November 24th, 2010 at 20:12.
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    Senior Member SheBeast76's Avatar
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    Going for Dwarves, for the runes and engineers.

  7. #6
    The Future realitycheque's Avatar
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    If you're looking at purely gunpowder, Dwarves. If you add in any other criteria, Empire.

    So to answer the poll, I'll be picking Dwarves, but if the question had been worded any differently, I'd have voted the other way.
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  8. #7
    (Un)Official LO Map Maker Cannibal God's Avatar
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    I'm saying Empire, in terms of purely gunpowder, Dwarves win with their runes, bolt throwers, etc. But as a gunline army as a whole, Empire are able to comfortably fill a number of roles (massed infantry defence to protect gunline) that dwarfs suffer at.

    Two cents, CG
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  9. #8
    quik-quik, kill-kill! The bearded one's Avatar
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    Dwarfs are pretty good at protecting their gunlines, but their infantry is of good quality as well. Let's say 2 hordes of 35 dwarf warriors with great weapons. Take up a lot of space and are very choppy.

    Think with a dwarf gunline of something like this:
    Runesmith, rune of spellbreaking ( scroll ), MroBalance, shield ( General ) 147 pts
    Thane, MroGromril, BSB, 115 pts
    master engineer, rune of stone, dwarf handgun, great weapon 89 pts

    35 gw warriors, full command ( 375 pts )
    35 gw warriors, full command ( 375 pts )
    21 longbeards, shields, full command, master rune of grungni ( 327 pts )

    6 bolt throwers, all with an engineer with brace of pistols, one of them has a rune of burning ( 395 pts )

    cannon, engineer, brace of pistols, rune of forging ( 145 pts )
    cannon, engineer, brace of pistols, rune of forging, rune of burning ( 150 pts )
    cannon, engineer, brace of pistols, rune of forging, rune of burning, rune of reloading ( 160 pts )

    grudge thrower, rune of penetrating, rune of penetrating, rune of accuracy, engineer, brace of pistols ( 175 pts )
    grudge thrower, rune of penetrating, rune of burning, rune of accuracy, engineer, brace of pistols ( 155 pts )
    grudge thrower, rune of penetrating, rune of accuracy, engineer, brace of pistols ( 150 pts )

    organ gun
    organ gun
    xxx pts

    2998 pts
    Master engineer is put between the grudge throwers and lets them all reroll their misfires
    engineers allow the warmachine to reroll on their misfire table
    engineers give BS 4 to bolt throwers

    Pretty nasty gunline with 3 sizeable chunky combat blocks that can in fact beat quite a lot.
    Last edited by The bearded one; February 17th, 2011 at 14:41.

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