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  1. #1
    Mr Commisar to you Commisarlestat's Avatar
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    How to destroy an elven deathstar?

    First off don't say an x-wing

    now that's out of the way the thread topic.
    I was having a discussion about an elven deathstar unit and how to deal with it. The unit is an archmage with folding fortress, bsb with antimagic banner, some variable wizards and over 100 archers. The characters get stuff to nullify as much shooting as possible through items.

    This unit goes into the tower during deployment. The tower is on the back edge of the table.

    The question is how do you get rid of it.
    It can't be hurt be magic/magical spell effects.
    Shooting is going to severely curtailed due to all of the minuses, ld is a rerollable 9 with steadfast in combat. The mages in the unit nullify quite a few of your unit buffs with dispel scrolls of various types and dispel dice.

    Read the building combat rules for the cc effects which weigh heavily in favour of the elves and you won't be challenging any characters.

    Which armies could take this? Also which armies could take this and still be competitive against other various armies?

    So answers anyone?

    A


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  3. #2
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    You can always just tell the guy to go entertain himself with some nice 2-grit sandpaper and a broomhandle and just not play him. I certainly wouldn't go up against him- that has got to be the most abusive list (and utterly idiotic) list that I've ever seen, and I'm all for playing extremely competitive games.

    Option 1.
    Tell him that you'd like to play a Scenario. Preferably Blood-and-Glory (oops, looks like you lose automatically), or Battle for the Watchtower (haha, you can only get in there with a 20man unit- have fun maneuvering outside the tower).

    Option 2.
    Play Warriors of Chaos. Warriors are the undisputed kings of building assault. And if you want to royally hose-over his Mages, take the Black Togune and Infernal Puppet. He fails to cast a spell, you turn it into a miscast and suffer a wound, you use the book to move it to something that can beat up the caster. If he's ruling that the Banner of the World Dragon is making him immune to the effects of miscasts, punch him in the face- because not only is he cheesy, he's also cheating. An while we're on that topic- he can't cast spells on his own unit either- make sure he doesn't.
    There's also a Special Character (Villitch the Curseling) who steals the casting dice if your opponent fails to cast successfully, and converts them to Dispel Dice. S3 shots (even 100 of them) do nothing against Chaos Armor, so you can walk right up to the building and start killing Elves 10 at a time. No, you're not going to get him out of the building, but after enough times, he will fail a Leadership test and end up outside the building- where you run him down with Knights.
    This army can deal with other armies just fine- it's a common enough tactic for us.
    Furthermore, you can use an Exalted Hero with the Sword of Swift Slaying, and another with the Helm of Many Eyes to confer ASF and a Higher Initiative to your assault group. The rules state that 10 models will always fight, so these two guys will cut down several elves themselves, more elves will step up, and then your Warriors will obliterate the other line of 10.
    2 Hellcannons bombing the building will cause Leadership checks at -1ld, and there's a banner for -1Ld if they're in LoS of the bearer, so that's an additional -1. Even with an Archmage in the unit, they're testing on a rerollable 7, they'll hopefully fail it eventually.


    Option 3.
    Play Empire
    Yeah, your gunners don't have the range to shoot at his lads in the tower, but cannons are template weapons. That means that they hit D6 enemies when they're in a building, rather than the usual template line. Ditto Mortars, and you can get 3 of each for just 525pts. Add a pair of Helstorm Rocket Batteries and you're hammering him with a potential 8D6 hits each turn. Fill out the rest of your army with Longbowmen to match his range and return fire (he can only fire with 5 models per floor, less if he needs LoS for the mages) and then use your characters as Warrior Priests and a L4 Scroll-Caddy to pick up extra dispel dice (priests) and a +4 to dispel attempts, to shut out his magic phase.

    Gotta say though, I'd just drag him out back by his collar and have a gentle discussion about how he's not "playing the game", he's just rolling dice, he's no fun to play against, and you hope the paramedics don't show for another twenty minutes or so

    I know a lot of people are going to jump on me about how bitter and mean (maybe even inappropriate) I'm being, and will probably even point out that I play tournaments and enjoy cheesy lists myself. But in all seriousness, this isn't even Warhammer. I'd rather face a gunline than play against this list. I guess now I understand why some tournaments outlaw Fozzricks Folding Fortress if it's so easily exploitable. Like I said- your best option (and everyone else's) is just to not play him in friendly games. Hit him in a tournament, just hang back out of range and go for a draw, then bring up the issue to tournament organizers- everyone outside of 'Ard Boyz will probably do something to ammend the situation.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  4. #3
    Senior Member Taubeast's Avatar
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    Personally, if someone did that, I'd refuse to play them, or use the little known magic "Lore of the Sweeping Hand." One spell, called "Oops, It Was An Accident."
    Tau Empire: We never stop hiding from you

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  6. #4
    Senior Member Castiell's Avatar
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    Captain has it nailed down pretty well. In anything that isn't a tournament, hit him. In a tournament, bore him to a draw, then ambush him on the way home

    Seriously - (granted, I ask myself this with every other dwarf/empire army too) Why would anyone want to play such an army?
    The Silver Knights of Tor Adrac (He): 26/2/4
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  7. #5
    Mr Commisar to you Commisarlestat's Avatar
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    332 (x8)

    Just to add this was a hypothetical list as I was helping a mate tweak his tournie list so decided to ask him how he'd deal with such cheese.
    The problem is getting anything other than a draw out of it. We came up with khalida and 90 odd bowmen that get the multishot poison and use her bs which is about 45 dead elves a turn. Also backed up with screaming skull catappults to force those panic tests.
    I'm just glad in my Gw we talk about these hideous lists but noone actually buys them or plays with them.

    A

  8. #6
    Son of LO Polaria's Avatar
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    This hypothetical example clearly shows why WHFB 8th edition is designed to be played with scenarios and scenarios only. Playing "just kill" this kind of cheese is virtually unbeatable, but in scenarios they turn into stupid auto-lose lists which no-one will take if he wishes to win
    Revenant Moon Necrons: (W/L/D) 0/1/0 (6th edition: 13/2/2)(5th edition: 14/6/4)(3rd edition Codex: 16/4/7)
    XIX Legion: (W/L/D) 0/0/0 (5th edition: 14/12/2)(5th edition Codex: 4/3/0)
    Black Legion: (W/L/D) 1/0/0 (6th edition: 2/3/0)
    Something Wicked... Reikwald Beastmen: (W/L/D) 10/4/1

  9. #7
    Benevolent Dictator CaptainSarathai's Avatar
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    Actually, there aren't really any scenarios which this army cannot win except for Watchtower- and even that they don't necessarily automatically lose. At a 2.5k game, they have a Blood-and-Glory Break Point of 3. Their current Fortitude is only 3, but if they add a BSB, they're fine.
    The rest of the games all have different deployments but still run the usual "kill eachother" victory conditions. The only one that would really mess this army up is Dawn Attack, because they have a chance at coming in away from the tower, but even that could be mitigated by deploying it on the corner of two zones.
    Pts Values for AoS here!

    Nippon Armybook: Isuu, Scribd, and free at Google Docs

  10. #8
    Son of LO
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    In *anything* but an 'Ard Boyz style setting which blatently askes you to break the game and throw fun out the window, I'd ask anyone showing up with this crap where their balls are and why aren't they still looking for them...

    I don't play against d-bags because it's not worth my time. Life & warhammer are ment to be enjoyed, not giving the time of day to people who think using a stupid & gimmiky list in a game of toy soldiers makes them big girls!

    Cheers!

  11. #9
    Son of LO Polaria's Avatar
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    I don't know if that army list is 2000 points or 2500 points or what, but with Beastmen I would tackle the problem with a nice little Minobus (Doombull, Gorebull BSB, Minotaurs) and a bunch of shamans with Lores of Beast and Wild. Hagtree fetish would be used, too. Minobus is pretty much immune to his low-S shooting, shamans get bunch of dispels and while buildings do offer some protection against template-type spells, they do nothing for spells like Viletide.
    Revenant Moon Necrons: (W/L/D) 0/1/0 (6th edition: 13/2/2)(5th edition: 14/6/4)(3rd edition Codex: 16/4/7)
    XIX Legion: (W/L/D) 0/0/0 (5th edition: 14/12/2)(5th edition Codex: 4/3/0)
    Black Legion: (W/L/D) 1/0/0 (6th edition: 2/3/0)
    Something Wicked... Reikwald Beastmen: (W/L/D) 10/4/1

  12. #10
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    I had a 'friend' try this on me with Lizardmen. After the first round of killing skinks, I moved all my troops to the back line and told him, 'If you don't come out, im not coming in and the game is over.' I killed 120pts of skinks and sat on the back line for 5 rounds, then got a minor victory. Haven't played him since.

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