Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
With a few rummors floating about that VC's might be on GW's radar, I'm curious what everyone - especially VC players would like to see in a possible 8th ed book?
Personally, I think the current book was an utter turd from day one... Sooooooo easy to abuse, no internal balance at all and generally rather stale.
I think the core section is likely one of the biggest concerns. Ghouls are the only thing that's viable right now, (because they can actually kill stuff), carts, dogs & swarms don't even count towards mins either. I'd like to see;
a) Zombies. They should be a staple for VC's, right now they get run over by bloody skaven slaves & gnoblars!!! I'd like to see them go back to T3, get a basic 6+ regen (because even armless & legless they still keep coming at you!).
Also, add an option for the Corpse Cart as a unit upgrade please! A unit with a cart would get slightly better regen (5+) and it fixes the issue of preventing corpse cart spam... let the bound spell affect how the zombies fare in combat and/or provide some light magic res/shooting protection perhaps? (or maybe knock -1Ld off of troops in base-to-base with it, making Fear a bit more usefull on zombies, who honestly get the least out of it right now since they can't even get 3+ to-hit!)
This unit is supposes to be a tarpit, but right now, even 100 of 'em don't last long... You can't even use them to support another unit, which is complete BS and makes them even more useless.
I think it would be cool too to see a 'Zombie Levy' similar to the old Storm of Chaos unit. (basically zombies w/light armour & spear or halberd). perhaps add an option for say xbows that always hit on 6's, don't give 'em the option for a corpse cart. Now you've got a flavourful unit to use for the likes of von Carstien, Blood Dragons or a Strigoi army too! (thinking more the Black Prince - the still 'noble' Strigoi rather than the hellish monster type...)
b) Skeletons, drop their pts for starters... They don't kill much and unstable is god-awful this edition. I wouldn't say "make them exactly like TK skeletons", leave the stats alone (TK skellies actually got a slight stat buff) but keep ours a bit easier to raise.
Skeletons & Zombies should be the mainstay of our core - not ghouls! (well, ghouls work for the Strigoi theme, but outside of that it's just silly to see 1001 ghouls per skeleton in every army!)
c) Ghouls. I'd honestly like to see them go back to being skirmishers. Leave their pts cost & stats the same, but bring them back to the packs of skulking cowards the backround says they are!
I know alot of players will scream stupid idea, but honestly, they probably never should have turned into a ranked unit in the first place... Being a skirmish unit not only fits their imagery, but it gives us a bit more flexability in our battelines now having a quicker more manoverable element, and it gives zombies & skellies a reason to keep existing! (and perhaps means we could see a possible elite Charnal Guard type unit of demi-ghouls - those who haven't yet fully devolved and/or the most savage & angry of the lot?!)
d) Dire Wolves just need to be a point or two cheaper and/or get their old 'slavering charge' rule back... (+1S on the charge, or perhaps just treat it as the devastating charge rule.)
I'd also like to see us get;
- 1 viable way to roll dice in the shooting phase. Screaming isn't really shooting per say, it's too short and has very limited damage potential. I mean a 'real' shooting option such as perhaps a stone thrower or bolt thrower to help counter T7+ nasties especially.
- add a Fast Cav unit back into our list, add a couple of monsterous infantry/beasts/cav mix. (we have solid rummors of Flesh Golums, but 2 monstorus units would be nice as golums don't quite fit certain Bloodlines at all!)
- BRING BACK THE BLOODLINES!!! Seriously, every vampire right now has a massive multiple personality complex... Ugly nobles, who are ageless masters of magic, but savage & beastial, who are masters of marital skill & pride! Silly... I like how the current powers system works as it gives choice to the player, but bring in something like Bloodline 'marks' which give a decent buff/rule similar to chaos marks.
ie; Blood Dragons get +1WS, must always issue/accept challenges, but re-roll missed to-hit in a challenge. Lahmians gain ASF, Strigoi get Hatred & regen 6+...
- Give vampires basic god damn equipment!!! Seriously, it's beyond moronic & studip that we have to pay almost 25pts for just Heavy armour + either Shield/Extra wepaon/Great weapon... Every other hero in the entire game pays at most upto about 10pts for the same damn thing!!! (F-you Gav, F-you!!!) Hell, we can get a few pieces of magical armour for cheaper, how dumb is that?!
I really don't want a return of 7th ed VC's - it sucked always being looked upon as 'that guy' just because you played what was generally agreed upon as a broken army... But I'd like to be able to use more than 2 basic choices outside of our rares please and thank-you!
Last edited by sirkently; November 6th, 2011 at 19:41.
Nice suggestions, I dont play them myself but I play AGAINST them. And its horrible, they just steamroll over pretty much everything. Tactics are useless cause they will just raise 5D6 zombies in your way which pins you down. Gives the ghouls enough time to flank etc.
And than there is the new.... terrorgheist..... Opponent takes 2 with him, they scream (Ranged attack) for 2D6 + own wounds - your leadership in wounds, dead half unit of chaos warriors, dead buffed up lord, dead sorcerer, dead everything. Nerf it for gods sake. Its like playing daemons all over.
Also, if he's so relyant on using zombies to pin oyu down, why not just dispel his summon undead horde? (problem solved) There's much better spells he should be casting anyways, so if he's raising zombies, rejoice about the free VP's he's handing you...
If he's honestly using T2 Zombies against Chaos Warriors and then being derpy enough to throw an expensive unit into the same combat?!! Seriously, just target the zombies with everything that can, then proceed to watch everything else crumble to combat res...
Honestly, the biggest thing you can do; Stop. Charging. Him.
A good VC player never charges in 8th ed with anything other than our dedicated war machine/missile hunters, cavalry or lone hunters. Our infantry works best recieving the charge because then we get to raise back our casulties right away!!! (+1CR will do gak-all against unstable losses)
March upto his infantry, park 1" away, wait him out. VC's can only use magic/screams for ranged damage... And our magic isn't going to out do the damage potential of chaos magic!
Oh, and always target the zombies with everything you can! Zombies bleed combat res... Combat res kills twice the undead!
Keep in mind the 'ghiest only has a 6+ regen save, he's actually very, very squishy for his pts!
Instead of crying 'VC are OP, nerf them!!!' Look at what and why your VC opponent is using his one-dimentional list the way he is...
Our book is currently the worst in the game. Chaos Warriors should walk all over everything we can field outside of the gravestar horde! (which in turn dies horribly to anyone with enough thought to pay 10pts for a flaming banner for example, or else anything targeting their paltry I3!)
Last edited by Enarion; December 13th, 2011 at 19:14.
I guess I'd like to see bloodlines come back too - I think the change was okay, it gave people a lot of flexibility I guess, but I did kind of like the idea of disadvantages coming with the advantages as per the older system.
Of course it seems these days GW's plan is just to simplify everything, not actually provide choice and customisation - seems to be happening in every codex/army book so I don't know how much of a change we'll actually see.
I think the Dire Wolf change (revert?) you proposed has merit - would possibly give you the fast cavalry you're after, too? I dunno, I really don't use the army (or any army) that much so I've never really got in to the rules/gaming side of things.
- Every raised unit of zombies = 50VP's when it's killed. If he's saying you get anything different than that, slap him with his army book and tell him to read his own rules!
Unless you've only got a couple warriors fighting, (ie: he hit you in the flank), you should have no trouble at all demolishing the deadheads as they fall over to even a wet noodle! I've seen a unit of 18 khornate warriors take out upwards of almost 50 zombies in one go thanks to unstable. O.O
Start targeting those zombies with everything possible and they'll lose the game for your opponent. Zombies = 'free' combat res.
- Summon Undead Horde is not a necromancy spell. Thus, unless he's taking the 'Forbidden Lore' power, he can only have 1 copy of the spell in his army. He also can't re-cast it like we can can with invocation or vanehl's danse. So yes, if he's relying heavily on it, dispel it! Bring a Lv4 if you have to, but stop his zombies from popping up en mass and his battle plans will go to hell! (as he'll likely be in a poor position if he's planning on automatically getting those zombies)
If he has multiple copies of SUH, ask to see his list. If he doesn't have at least 1 vampire with FL, then he's cheating!
- Tzeentch magic makes undead cry. Flickering Fire will annihalate those 'ghiests. (possible 7/S7 flaming hits on a 3+ to-cast? yes please!) Pandemonium forces the VC player to spend PD to dispel it if it goes off, because it'll screw us over rather badly... Baleful Transmorgification = dead 'ghiest per casting! (Ld4 you say, oh dear...) Gateway on his general's unit will have him craping his pants and leave him with a bad taste in his mouth.
Take a Tzeentch Lv2 on disc w/ward save and go nuts.
- The Terrorghiest... First off, remember that to march, our units need to be within 6" of another model with the Vampire rule. (or 12" of the general - who will no doubt be hiding behind his grave guard!) So if he's slinging them off 20" turn1, he better have a vargulf to keep up, or a mounted/scouting/lycni vampire, or blood knights or black coach. If not, well, now they only move 10"!
As you fear those screams so much, focus fire on them with your wizards. Drown them with a unit of great weapon marauders. Dance around then with mounted marauders while peppering them with javalins. A couple wounds and those screams start to suck alot. (D6 = average roll of 7) Honestly, a larger unit of say 10 mounted marauders w/MoS + flails should short out a 'ghiest in combat.
And if he's spending magic to heal his 'ghiests? Let him! He can only heal 1 wound at a time, and it's a pretty silly choice to do that honestly... Just batter away at his infantry which loses effectiveness quite quickly once unstable wounds kick in!
- The Gravestar. Let it charge you! Now you've got 2 combat phases before it can repair itself with magic. Bring the burny banner - an auto-include against ANY! VC force. A Horde of 50 Khornate marauders with great weapons will trash the gravestar. (though you'll need a BSB to get the burny banner in there)
Or else throw your own deathstar at it; the Tzeentch chosenstar outlasts anything and hits back hard enough to wipe the floor with those grave guard off the table within a couple of phases!
Also, always remember to target the BSB with everyone who can! He won't have a save beyond his 4+/4+ regen, since he can't take other magic items if he's toting the dickenhof banner about. Once he drops, the unit is simply a glass cannon.
Chaos honestly walks all over VC's. Both are pure combat armies, but VC's get troops who cost at least 33% more than they should, unstable and few outright damage dealers outside of expensive deathstars & rare units.
Chaos on the other hand have the game's best core units, and brutal magic to back it up. not to mention the game's best deathstar as well...
Post up your list and perhaps some ther VC players can also help point out the holes we'd take advantage of and how to fix them?!