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Cheesy beardy whatever you call it. How do YOU define it.
For me a cheesy army is:
1. An army that is all ranged firepower (dwarf gunlines). It is boring to play with and against and generally quite one sided (esp in a tourney).
2. An army that is less than 2500 that has a special character or a dragon. 2500 points is the lowest point cost that I think such a dominant miniature should be available. At 2000 points a basic army will not have the ability to destroy them and they kill EVERYTHING!!!
3. Someone who says "Why do you pick units that are fun to play? Play to win" at a friendly game round someone's house.
What are YOUR definitions?
Cheese is, IMO, a useless concept. It is basically for whining about your opponent's army. But it doesn't really specify why you are whining, so the opponent can't even take useful steps to avoid it.
Distinct concepts (and my examples for them) are as follows:
Fluff: many players have conceptions of how armies should look, and if your army doesn't stick to their conception, it is cheesey. I say, if you wanna buy, model, paint, and base an army, you should be able to put whatever you want in it. Mages and cannons in your Khorne army? GREAT. Huge slavering ogres with your HE, fine by me! Fluff is personal, and IMO should only be applied to your OWN army, because other people have different perceptions of their army.
My strategy doesn't work, so your army is cheesey: So change your strategy. Or stop playing.
Boring: gunlines are boring for me to play and play against, because there is no movement on one side of the field.
Confusing: O&G are very confusing to me, especially those that use a lot of fanatics, netters and squigs/hoppers. THey have a ton of special rules, and games are often won or lost because one or the other player didn't remember some rule. I'd rather win or lose games when both players are putting on reasonable performance, rather than errors of ignorance. If both players know about the wierdness (fanatics, assassins, other hidden stuff) and use it to create uncertainty, that is another matter. But I tend to specify the special rules of my units to the other player if I think they don't know them. Once or twice it turns out they didn't know something I thought was obvious... oops...
Overpowering models: Some single units or models can cost a ton of points, and be worth every one. This means the army using that model can concentrate some type of force better than the opponent can, and some armies won't have any method of dealing with it. This is a sign that one or the other player, or both, need to change their armies up if they are going to play each other often, otherwise the game will be repetitive, frustrating, and probably boring after a pretty short time. Dragons, steam tanks, special characters, and some war machines are the prime candidates here.
Unbalanced matchups: Say all magic HE infantry vs. anti-magic gunline dwarves. There may not be a single model or unit that wins the game, but some matchups are kinda doomed from the beginning due to general army strategy. This is another case for changing army make-up.
Cheating: This is the closest I'll come to cheesy. Some players deliberately break rules, or misinform opponents of rules, in order to gain advantages. The remedy for this is to point out the correct interpretation, and if the cheating persists, stop playing that opponent.
In real life, people'll ask if you want some cheese with your whine (pun on the english for wine, for non-native speakers). In warhammer, w(h)ine and cheese are the same thing, IMO.
Last edited by kooshlord; May 9th, 2007 at 21:56.
Arena of Death Champion: Nexim of the Guldskullz Tribe. Fear my wrath!
I agree with you Koosh. "Cheese" for me is a player who picks an army that isn't fun to play with or against. They may win or lose it doesnt matter, it's just not a fun game.
People forget sometimes that this is a GAME. If you lose, oh well tough luck. If you win well done! End of. I dont like people who wine about dice ALL THE TIME. I play poker with a guy who does this with cards, at the end he always says "You got lucky on the cards, I just never have any luck." I can understand getting angry at something that you didnt even consider the possibility of happening (a champion beating a chaos lord in a challenge, something like that). But dont whine about luck all game. If it isnt your day with the dice deal with it. Maybe at the end say to your opponent "You were pretty lucky with (insert situation) weren't ya?" but dont have a go at him because the dice gods liked him.
I see this a lot in GW stores. Kids getting really angry and stroppy coz their dice fail them. Again I can understand a sigh when you roll snakeyes on the miscast table, but dont bring it up everytime a dice is picked up.
there we go rant over.
I like cheese. I like it with a nice helping of Branston pickle on top and placed between two slices of buttered bread
As for game "cheese" it all depends on players. To one player choosing units for your army purely because they are the most powerful and offer the best chance of victory is cheese. To another player it's simply a good strategy. This is why I'm not too keen on the concept of cheese.
If I want to try out a dragon, or a heavy magic army, or <insert army composition here> I want to be able to do it without being called cheesy. I wouldn't just try to pick the most powerful list I could though (I wouldn't be playing High Elves if that was how I thought...) because I believe in taking armies made up of your favourite units. Best models, best background and so on. If they happen to be powerful or not doesn't really matter to me.
Some armies are less fun to play than others, such as the gunlines and so on, but I will fight for a player's right to make whatever list they want (so long as it's legal) and not have to deal with cries of cheese because of it.
Of course! You can't have a thread on cheese without someone making reference to it being food. I saw nobody had done so yet and saw my chance!
Well, to clarify my opinion on what is cheese...this is difficult. I would say taking armies designed purely to have the units best suited to beating their opponent are cheese, but even though they are cheesy I would never actually complain to the player that his list was cheesy. I might say that it wasn't fun to play against, but I wouldn't actually use the 'c' word. What I would not consider cheesy is someone using a powerful unit (which might often be considered cheesy) in an otherwise balanced army because they like it, or want to try it out or for any other reason.
I think that best sums my opinion up...but then again maybe it doesn't...I'm not too sure to be honest!
Rotted Bovine lactation.:x That's sick. Butter on bread, some people...Originally Posted by Ancalagon
There is no such thing as cheese. There are things that are legal and there is cheating. If your list is composed of things that are allowed as stated in your army book, then its fine.
I find that the people who cry cheese are people who:
-cannot think outside the box enough to adapt to the army you are playing (hence why Wood Elves get called cheesy because of their different play style)
-have created a power gaming list that ends up getting clobbered
-have some kind of ego/god complex where they can't think of themselves as inferior to anyone, therefore if they lost you must have cheated.
Also I find that people who understand the game more will not cry cheese. Stereotypically its a thing for 12 y/o's and powergamers with ego problems.
My definition of cheese?
Cheese in my book is taking advantage of the rules in an out of proportions way.
Example: a 2000 point HE army with 2 dragons or 8 levels of magic, 2 bound items and banner of sorcery. Would any army really look like that?
Dwarven gunlines are not nessecary to be cheesy. I was at a tourny this weekend and 1 player brought a army with only gunpower. 4 units of 24 thunderers, organ gun and cannons. He got a top score on comp and won best sportmanship. The theme of the army was a yankee themed civil war army. But he used it with his thunderers ranked up like infantry. People kept telling him to do the gun line thing. He did it in the last game and had his opponent whiped out in turn 2. He then demanded to replay the game because he felt cheap and it was a stupid way to play the army.
So cheese comes down to the player not the list. There are things we tend to automaticly call cheesy but it all comes down to how it's used.