WM vs. 40K ?

[washout]

Originally Posted by mynameisgrax

As a counter-counter argument ^_^ converting metal figures is very difficult, and highly prone to breakage, or unrealistic gaps. Greenstuff helps with this, but that's another step. Also, Warmachine doesn't come with extra parts, so the only way to convert is to either craft from basic materials, or to buy twice as many models for parts.

Well WM has a full on bits store and GW ditched thiers so you can get parts for conversions pretty easily. And yes there are less parts in unit kits but this is really a plastic vs. metal debate and I dislike plastic minis.

Also, when I said there wasn't much customization, I mean with the troops themselves. Yes, with Warmachine there are more troops to work with, but using them necessitates buying the models. With 40k, it's possible to customize the equipment and statistics of the individual units themselves. In 40k, you change your army by re-writing a line on a piece of paper. In Warmachine, you change your army by spending $50-100.

I don't understand the thrust of the arguement here. In WM you change your army by changing your caster. I don't see how you change your army by re-writing a line of paper in 40k, you have to switch units around and buy more of them. You can add different weapons etc. but you can add UA's and solos that change how units act too. I think things seem like they are different as far as customizing units in 40k but try and tell that to necrons.

The problem is, once you settle on a list with Warmachine, you're pretty much stuck with it, as there isn't any way to change what the troops are once you've bought them.

In the same way you can't change a unit of tac marines with bolters once you have them assembled and painted. But you can change how they are used with UAs and solos and which Warcaster you are using. Just like you can buy some dudes with melta guns or whatnot and add on to your squads.

You could always spend $300-500 dollars to buy a large number of troops to choose between, but at that point, there really isn't a difference between them and 40k.

Well warmachine minis and GW minis cost the same. But you really do need 2x or 3x the troops to play a game of 40k over WM. So 40k is more expensive. The biggest army, Menoth all troops, probably is the most expensive but it probably costs the same as an 1850 grey knights force. And in both games people are going to buy stuff in addition to the core list, so I really do think WM is a much cheeper game. Everyone will go and buy additional stuff because hardly anyone just buys one list, most people want like 5 or more lists with lots of overlap.

[mynameisgrax]

Changing your warcaster is indeed significant, at least more significant than any individual unit in 40k (except perhaps the monolith), but calling that 'changing your army as a whole' is a stretch.

Ultimately, the rest of your units stay the same. This wouldn't matter if your army focused completely around your warcaster, but in most cases your jacks/beasts are just as important, and if you keep using the same ones, only with different warcasters, your army isn't going to be that much different. Ultimately, your overall strategy will most likely be exactly same, the only difference being the specific abilities you use, and how you position your troops.

Think of it this way: take Magic the Gathering. Imagine if all cards besides land were uncommon. In other words, imagine if every magic card cost about a dollar. It wouldn't make it any less a complex or deep game, but your options would be far more limited, because when you settled on a specific deck, you would be more or less stuck with it.

To stretch the analogy further, does anyone remember 'Weatherlight'? Did I just show my age? *Sigh* Anyway, there was an expansion for Magic the Gathering that included 'characters' to go with each deck. Each character had a different starting hand size, health, and special power.

That's what Warmachine reminds me of. You get more or less a single magic deck, and the characters change some of your abilities and rules. Ultimately, it's the same deck though, and expanding is expensive. It doesn't mean it's a bad game, in fact it's a very fun game, but it's inherently more limited that 40k, at least in regards to changing and customizing your army.

It more than makes up for it, however, with options during the game. In 40k, all you can really do is move, shoot, assault, and perhaps use a power, but those are rare. Again, it comes down to what you prefer.

[purple40k]

Warmachine/Hordes is easier to learn, and harder to master, than 40k. The WM/Hordes games expect that you are creative in your unit choices and application. 40k is attrition with marginal amounts of tactics by comparison. I will concede that the list building strategies of 40k go beyond that of WM/Hordes. Another very relevant factor to war games in general; their dice and how they treat us. In WM/Hordes you work with dice results as cumulative, in 40k dice are individual results. I roll dice poorly. It's been the downfall of countless tournament games, neither system is more forgiving for me. I still expect that most players prefer the weight of 2 or 3 dice towards expectations of average over single a dice. In game depth is hard to really compare other than to say 40k is a game of attrition, WM/Hordes plays out like you want it to.

just my 2 cents

[librisrouge]

To a certain extent, I agree with Purple40k (whose name should now be PurpleWM or PurpleHDs.)

As for the customizability factor in WH40k. Bull. Have you guys read the Ork, Chaos, Deamons, Eldar, and previewed the new Space Marine Codexs. To get the most out of your armies to practically are obligated to take named characters. Want to play a Crimson Fist army with fluffy rules and something to distinguish them from oddly painted ultramarines, better take their captain. Give it a year and Gameworkshop will make it less customizable than WM (this was the point that first got me to try WM.)

Plus, Space Marine characters are losing options with each chapter codex (look at HQs in Blood Angels and Dark Angels.)

As for the cards, I love them. Now I don't have to deal with army lists and token markers for effects and damage. I just bring the cards I need and mark them (in protective sleeves of course) as neccessary. Anybody wants to see your army list, hand them the deck and have them add it up if they doubt your math.

[nekochen]

Honestly, to me, Warmachine/Hordes are basically a 3D trading card game (TCG), kinda similar to the WoW TCG. You make your deck (or if you like to call it an army) base on the hero you choose (or you could call it Warcaster/Warlock), then you add in the cards that will compliment the theme of your deck. Instead of having to draw cards and lay down resources every turn, you get a certain amount of focus to act as mana/resources. I can see alot of people who plays Privateer Press games would also enjoy TCGs.

[Da Mighty Camel]

It is a moot point IMO, since it asumes that the cards are the main focus of the game, which we all know ain't true. It is all about the models g'damnit! If 40k was supplied with reference cards, would it also be a "3D TCG"? What about Confrontation or AT-43? I don't think so.

[nekochen]

TCG is all about combo-ling with different cards, that's why they take certain cards for their deck.

Warmachine? Almost every unit has a feature that boosts the ability of another certain unit. I play Menoth so I can only recall the names of the units in this army -- Choirs, what would they do in armies without Warjacks? etc. etc., I could name you a whole bunch more.

TCG has max limit on each cards taken -- ex. 4 cards max of the same card in MTG and WoW.

Warmachine? Most unit has a max allowence of 2.. if not just single.

TCG is about resource control.

Warmachine? Focus points, and the assigning Focus phase before anything else. You need that Focus to move a Warjack and it isnt anything different than tapping a land in magic.

"some" TCG is about Heroes, ex. World of Warcraft TCG. Hero dies, game over.

Warmachine? Warcaster, if he/she dies, the game is pretty much over unless you dont use Warjacks.

Now if Warhammer is supplied with Reference Cards, would it turn into a TCG? I think not, because it doesnt have any of the above key TCG playstyle. Surely, Warmachine is a game that utilise dice and some luck in rolling them, but that still doesnt deviat from the fact that it is evolved from a 2D card game into a 3D miniature TCG. I think your argument of turning Warhammer into a TCG by mere publishing of a Ref. Cards is indeed a moot point.

[purple40k]

Neko, you have a very interesting version of TCG.

I think you fail to remember one of most basic aspects of a card game in the vein of WoW-TCG/MTG/Lot5R; the random factor in collect ability which is for many one of the greatest draws to that sort of system.

In TCGs when a new player, that is terrible, is handed an excellent deck he/she will win. This is very much the case in Warhammer 40k, in WM/HDs seldom is this the case.

The nature of a TCG combo is very linear; once A takes effect B takes effect and C..... It's like counting. The simplest of special actions, charging in any table top game requires a player to guess/approximate distance as well as use tertiary player created settings to achieve desired results. TCG combos require a number of cards and understanding of game rules. So yes, to your description of 3D card combos if it seems to still apply.

I do not understand how a game where your resources are limited to what you have drawn from the top of your deck(s) is comparable to a game in which you set miniatures on a table.

A card has an effect, be it a lasting one (for example; warrior, equipment, domain, land etc) or short lived one(spell, instant, interrupt) the card does not allow for itself to operate outside of it's script. A model for example, may move less than it's relevant movement score. The difference is not in rules but, it is in player aptitude/choice.

I would say that if you still believe WM/HORDES is a 3D TCG you should have very little left in way of argument against also calling Warhammer 40k a 3D TCG, aside from the reference cards=).

Menoths gimmick is the knot, weaving units and models together to form a tight group of supportive army elements. So, maybe you are coming from a Menite perspective there Neko?

Pretty durn positive I'm done with the TCGs, and sure that calling PP wargames 3d card games aint right.

[nekochen]

Originally Posted by purple40k

Neko, you have a very interesting version of TCG.

I think you fail to remember one of most basic aspects of a card game in the vein of WoW-TCG/MTG/Lot5R; the random factor in collect ability which is for many one of the greatest draws to that sort of system.

I do not know how deep were you into the TCGs, but any experienced players would tell you their decks have minimized risk of drawing unwanted cards. Any experienced Warmachine players will also ensure each of their dice roll outcome to be close to their expectation by using more focus points -- more dice = more chance of success, samething with more of the same cards = more chance of drawing the card. I do not see how drawing cards from a deck is the "greatest" attraction to that sort of system, as to rolling dices for table top games would be the "greatest" attraction of the game.

Originally Posted by purple40k

In TCGs when a new player, that is terrible, is handed an excellent deck he/she will win. This is very much the case in Warhammer 40k, in WM/HDs seldom is this the case.

I also have to disagree your point of a new player will win with a handed-down good deck. Deck of cards are designed by players with their own strategy in mind, and thus a new player wouldnt know of the original thoughts that were put into making the deck... unless the guy is a psychic or he's simply lying that he's new to the game.

Originally Posted by purple40k

The nature of a TCG combo is very linear; once A takes effect B takes effect and C..... It's like counting. The simplest of special actions, charging in any table top game requires a player to guess/approximate distance as well as use tertiary player created settings to achieve desired results. TCG combos require a number of cards and understanding of game rules. So yes, to your description of 3D card combos if it seems to still apply.

Of course it still applies. The involvement of having actual models on the table instead of just cards plays the big role of the game. The movement of the model dictates how your "3D card combos" will go off, and this shifts an actual TCG from just pure paper to paper and miniatures, it surely added alot more depth from just paper TCGs.

Originally Posted by purple40k

I do not understand how a game where your resources are limited to what you have drawn from the top of your deck(s) is comparable to a game in which you set miniatures on a table.

What do you call a TCG game by the turn when both players have drawn out enough resources and a couple creatures cards on the table? So they automatically turns into Warmachine because they now have ready resources and creature to begin the next turn? They might as well as put a miniature on top of each creature cards that's on the table, and put poker chips on top of the resource card and call them focus points. Oh! It's my turn. I use 3 resources (Focus) and activate this card's (Warjack) special attack on your hero (Warcaster). 15 Damages, your hero died, good game. This whole argument isnt a Sphere-Square argument, it's more of a Square-Rectangle argument -- surely, both objects have the exact same amount of sides, but one is longer and the other is shorter. The concept behind both games are still the same.

Originally Posted by purple40k

A card has an effect, be it a lasting one (for example; warrior, equipment, domain, land etc) or short lived one(spell, instant, interrupt) the card does not allow for itself to operate outside of it's script. A model for example, may move less than it's relevant movement score. The difference is not in rules but, it is in player aptitude/choice.

Sure, you may move or act less than a model's own ability boundary, but so can a card player chooses to use a different ability on a card if it has more than one.. or even, the card player may choose not to use the card at all. The choice and your so-called aptitude is still there, what is the difference? So you say each card must perform the way it is written, but can you change the text in your model's reference card? I think not, comparing choices in both game is a moot point.

Originally Posted by purple40k

I would say that if you still believe WM/HORDES is a 3D TCG you should have very little left in way of argument against also calling Warhammer 40k a 3D TCG, aside from the reference cards=).

Please do point out where Warhammer games are similar to a TCG? All TCGs *MUST* have a resource system; All TCGs *MUST* have some sort of cards that only works with another card (with the text telling you which exact card it would be) which makes up part of the TCG combo system. Perhaps your game of Warhammer uses some kind of resource system that I am not awared of.. or maybe your lascannon will not shoot if there isnt a battery model next to it.

Originally Posted by purple40k

Menoths gimmick is the knot, weaving units and models together to form a tight group of supportive army elements. So, maybe you are coming from a Menite perspective there Neko?

Pretty durn positive I'm done with the TCGs, and sure that calling PP wargames 3d card games aint right.

I am not calling PP wargames bad, or else I would not have been playing it for years... in fact, it's a great game when me and friends are seeking a break from Warhammer, MTG & WoW TCGs. This is my own personal opinion and I am only pointing it out on the opportunity of the topic. I will now stop posting in this thread as I see I may have upset a few PP wargame fanboys.

My Apology!

[Da Mighty Camel]

Don't call me something I'm not. "Fanboy" is an insult to many on the Internet. I just don't see the resemblence to a card game. Of course, I have no interest in card games, neither have I ever played too many of them. I just think comparing a collectible card game with a hobby wierd...